Bitterness???
Tangential Pond Returns are "worthless".
- Thread starter Mucky_Waters
- Start date
Sarcasm.
Yeah, you're right, doesn't work too good in text.
Yeah, you're right, doesn't work too good in text.
Shalom - not sure of what or if anything I've learned from reading the above - sure do LOVE IT when the pot is being stired - BUT, having Koi within a water garden "concept" it is very interseting to learn from the "elders" of the ponding family.
My goal having entered the 14th Lumstrum, is for ease of maintenance; my resaon, for installing a retro bottom drain for flushing the toliet which I hope to complete within the next 2 weeks or so which includes upgrading the pipe size to 1.5".
So, gentlemen, keep the info flowing, some of us do have an interest.
McKool
My goal having entered the 14th Lumstrum, is for ease of maintenance; my resaon, for installing a retro bottom drain for flushing the toliet which I hope to complete within the next 2 weeks or so which includes upgrading the pipe size to 1.5".
So, gentlemen, keep the info flowing, some of us do have an interest.
McKool
Hey McKool
I'd like to accommodate you, but I'm done. I think I covered all I wanted to with my 3rd post in this thread, the rest of the posts in this thread and the other forum have been pretty much for Waterbugs benefit. I don't know if posting over there accomplished what he wanted or not, but I'll let him have the last word in that thread, unless someone directly addresses some question to me.
Feel free to start another thread on the same topic, if you like, that more closely addresses your retro bottom drain upgrade. I will say I think you should go with a larger diameter pipe size.
I'd like to accommodate you, but I'm done. I think I covered all I wanted to with my 3rd post in this thread, the rest of the posts in this thread and the other forum have been pretty much for Waterbugs benefit. I don't know if posting over there accomplished what he wanted or not, but I'll let him have the last word in that thread, unless someone directly addresses some question to me.
Feel free to start another thread on the same topic, if you like, that more closely addresses your retro bottom drain upgrade. I will say I think you should go with a larger diameter pipe size.
Shalom - 10-4; Thank you.
crsublette
coyotes call me Charles
How does a fella judge the flow rate for pond returns ??
It is my understanding that the jet force out of TPRs do not need to be tremendously strong to create a proper current, appropriately sized for pond design. Grrr, this is one thing I could not pin point. I know stronger the better, but I would imagine there is a point of overkill, or too much of a good thing is a bad thing, that is quickly reached.
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An interesting test would to be literally dump a fair amount of debris into your pond, like they do to test filters. This would show how much of the debris is collected by a bottom drain, with minimal current, and how much remains settled on the floor.
I never realized the word "proof" would be so volatile. I suppose it'd be better with an adjective describing the proof, such as anecdotal proof.
This is a good test i think. No different than saying "dumping a clump of string algae to clear out single cell algae works sometimes" is "proof" that string algae deters other types of algae. :twisted: I guess it was luck that the right algae species cleared up or that the string algae survived transportation to do its thing. /poke /poke "friend" ((a.k.a, Waterbug))
it's all good man.
It is my understanding that the jet force out of TPRs do not need to be tremendously strong to create a proper current, appropriately sized for pond design. Grrr, this is one thing I could not pin point. I know stronger the better, but I would imagine there is a point of overkill, or too much of a good thing is a bad thing, that is quickly reached.
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An interesting test would to be literally dump a fair amount of debris into your pond, like they do to test filters. This would show how much of the debris is collected by a bottom drain, with minimal current, and how much remains settled on the floor.
I never realized the word "proof" would be so volatile. I suppose it'd be better with an adjective describing the proof, such as anecdotal proof.
This is a good test i think. No different than saying "dumping a clump of string algae to clear out single cell algae works sometimes" is "proof" that string algae deters other types of algae. :twisted: I guess it was luck that the right algae species cleared up or that the string algae survived transportation to do its thing. /poke /poke "friend" ((a.k.a, Waterbug))
it's all good man.
Charles you are correct that it doesn't take much current to move the mulm around. If you follow that koiphen thread some of the members mentioned that often the fish swishing is enough move stuff around. I think in my case it's mainly the current created from the waterfall that keeps the pond bottom clear, that and the slope in the bottom of the pond.
As for your test suggestion of dumping debris in the pond, I didn't think that was necessary, all I have to do is look at the stuff accumulating in my settling tank (as shown in the video). I clean that top screen in the settling tank fairly regularly, so it's easy to gauge the amount of stuff that would be laying on the bottom of my pond if not for the bottom drain. I feel that's pretty concrete "proof" that the bottom drain is working as intended without any need for extra TPR plumbing. That doesn't mean TPRs wouldn't be helpful or necessary in other ponds, but it does show that bottom drains can work effectively without them, providing that certain other requirements are met (eg. size, shape, current).
As for your test suggestion of dumping debris in the pond, I didn't think that was necessary, all I have to do is look at the stuff accumulating in my settling tank (as shown in the video). I clean that top screen in the settling tank fairly regularly, so it's easy to gauge the amount of stuff that would be laying on the bottom of my pond if not for the bottom drain. I feel that's pretty concrete "proof" that the bottom drain is working as intended without any need for extra TPR plumbing. That doesn't mean TPRs wouldn't be helpful or necessary in other ponds, but it does show that bottom drains can work effectively without them, providing that certain other requirements are met (eg. size, shape, current).
Also proves anything can be rationalized.
Reminds me of a fable...Blind mans looks at the sun at noon and sees nothing but darkness and says "I've proven the sun does not produce light".
Here Dan, I magnified your signature so you can actually read it.
Perhaps you should change it to read:
Just a suggestion, I still love ya man. :luxlove:
Perhaps you should change it to read:
Just a suggestion, I still love ya man. :luxlove:
crsublette
coyotes call me Charles
Mucky!!! I watched your Pond Utopia video. Your turtles and frogs are awesome. Your pond looks like it is quite enclosed and very deep. Is there actualy more land for the critters to chill or do they mainly reside on that branch or plants or shelf there somewhere?? How do ya feed them??
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Anywho, my serious face on now ...
Bottom drain is to allow debris to be taken away. I think you've proven this point by simply showing that debris enters and displaying the accumulation in the SC (settlement chamber).
In your video, I do see some debris accumulation that has settled even with your waterfall, but I bet it eventually does, very slowly, meets the drain's sphere of influence if it gets knocked around enough by the fish and the waterfall helps on that half of the pond where it is located. Bottom drains do have a sphere of influence where as, once the debris gets near enough to the sphere, then it will slowly move toward the the bottom drain. I have read where this sphere can have a 1 to 3 foot radius from drain, depending on if it is a 2"~4" bottom drain and if the drain is aerated. I don't see much debris potential that could occur at all since sounds like most of your plant debris fall on the shelves; this is why I suggested dumping a bunch of debris, skimmer off, and see how long it takes for it to get cleaned up and this should prove if you have a good water current in your pond. Now, if you wanted to keep your plant shelf clean, this is where a water current supplmental would help you. The supplmental doesn't have to be a TPR. I am thinking you could put 1/4" bubble tubing around the pots or structures that to push away accumulate debris then having a slitted tubing structure that could gently push the debris off the shelf.
I think TPRs have two functions. First, TPRs reaches areas where other currents, from waterfall etc, can not reach. Secondly, TPRs additional water current pushes the debris toward the drain rather than the debris just kind of coasting along, eventually getting there. I know critters can add bit to the sweeping on occasion, but I don't know if it would really be all that much to make a difference.
Bottom drains without TPRs are still worth something since they still do eventually suck in debris. So, saying bottom drains are worthless, without water current supplementals such as TPRs, is quiite simply an overstatement to exaggerate a person's persuasion in an attempt to get their point across. It is a harsh way to get your point across that can lead to misinformation, but it still effective to people. So, either people read that statement that prods them to further research the term "TPR" or simply the reader just accepts the statement depending on their motivation.
I don't know. It's all good. I'm enjoying this back and forth as I am drinking my adult beverage. It's five o' clock somewhere. :beerchug:
or plants or shelf there somewhere?? How do ya feed them??-------------------
Anywho, my serious face on now ...
Bottom drain is to allow debris to be taken away. I think you've proven this point by simply showing that debris enters and displaying the accumulation in the SC (settlement chamber).
In your video, I do see some debris accumulation that has settled even with your waterfall, but I bet it eventually does, very slowly, meets the drain's sphere of influence if it gets knocked around enough by the fish and the waterfall helps on that half of the pond where it is located. Bottom drains do have a sphere of influence where as, once the debris gets near enough to the sphere, then it will slowly move toward the the bottom drain. I have read where this sphere can have a 1 to 3 foot radius from drain, depending on if it is a 2"~4" bottom drain and if the drain is aerated. I don't see much debris potential that could occur at all since sounds like most of your plant debris fall on the shelves; this is why I suggested dumping a bunch of debris, skimmer off, and see how long it takes for it to get cleaned up and this should prove if you have a good water current in your pond. Now, if you wanted to keep your plant shelf clean, this is where a water current supplmental would help you. The supplmental doesn't have to be a TPR. I am thinking you could put 1/4" bubble tubing around the pots or structures that to push away accumulate debris then having a slitted tubing structure that could gently push the debris off the shelf.
I think TPRs have two functions. First, TPRs reaches areas where other currents, from waterfall etc, can not reach. Secondly, TPRs additional water current pushes the debris toward the drain rather than the debris just kind of coasting along, eventually getting there. I know critters can add bit to the sweeping on occasion, but I don't know if it would really be all that much to make a difference.
Bottom drains without TPRs are still worth something since they still do eventually suck in debris. So, saying bottom drains are worthless, without water current supplementals such as TPRs, is quiite simply an overstatement to exaggerate a person's persuasion in an attempt to get their point across. It is a harsh way to get your point across that can lead to misinformation, but it still effective to people. So, either people read that statement that prods them to further research the term "TPR" or simply the reader just accepts the statement depending on their motivation.
I don't know. It's all good. I'm enjoying this back and forth as I am drinking my adult beverage. It's five o' clock somewhere. :beerchug:
So let me get this straight Mucky old buddy buddy...you start a thread belittling my comments and now your feelings are hurt because no one's buying and I'm not taking your crap for a "civilized discussion"? What color is the sky in your world? You're a real piece of work oh buddy...a real passive aggressive piece of work.
Because I still love you too old buddy oh pal I have a suggestion for you too...Next time you want to convince people that your opinions are actually facts how about keeping me out of it? Don't air quote me? Don't use my name? How's that for an idea? If you don't want to insult people, I don't know, how about not actually doing it? If you want a "civilized discussion" how about starting it as a "civilized discussion". Don't drag me into your delusions and I'll be happy to leave you to broadcasting your wisdom to anyone willing to buy it. You stir the pot and now you're sad it's stirred...keep stirring old buddy oh pal.
Because I still love you too old buddy oh pal I have a suggestion for you too...Next time you want to convince people that your opinions are actually facts how about keeping me out of it? Don't air quote me? Don't use my name? How's that for an idea? If you don't want to insult people, I don't know, how about not actually doing it? If you want a "civilized discussion" how about starting it as a "civilized discussion". Don't drag me into your delusions and I'll be happy to leave you to broadcasting your wisdom to anyone willing to buy it. You stir the pot and now you're sad it's stirred...keep stirring old buddy oh pal.
Mucky!!! I watched your Pond Utopia video. Your turtles and frogs are awesome. Your pond looks like it is quite enclosed and very deep. Is there actualy more land for the critters to chill or do they mainly reside on that branch
Thanks Charles. There is a strip of land at the back of the pond against the wall where I have some English ivy planted that I want to climb and grow over the wall. Also on the far left there is a land area about 11X5 ft.
The turtles and frogs can get a lot of natural food on there own, but I do feed them by hand as well.
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Anywho, my serious face on now ...
Bottom drain is to allow debris to be taken away. I think you've proven this point by simply showing that debris enters and displaying the accumulation in the SC (settlement chamber).
In your video, I do see some debris accumulation that has settled even with your waterfall, but I bet it eventually does, very slowly, meets the drain's sphere of influence if it gets knocked around enough by the fish and the waterfall helps on that half of the pond where it is located. Bottom drains do have a sphere of influence where as, once the debris gets near enough to the sphere, then it will slowly move toward the the bottom drain. I have read where this sphere can have a 1 to 3 foot radius from drain, depending on if it is a 2"~4" bottom drain and if the drain is aerated. I don't see much debris potential that could occur at all since sounds like most of your plant debris fall on the shelves; this is why I suggested dumping a bunch of debris, skimmer off, and see how long it takes for it to get cleaned up and this should prove if you have a good water current in your pond. Now, if you wanted to keep your plant shelf clean, this is where a water current supplmental would help you. The supplmental doesn't have to be a TPR. I am thinking you could put 1/4" bubble tubing around the pots or structures that to push away accumulate debris then having a slitted tubing structure that could gently push the debris off the shelf.
You have to understand that this pond is primarily a water garden built for those turtles and frogs (and a few fish), and as such I actually want areas in the pond that provide habitat for those frogs and turtles, both of which don't like open flowing water. They are more at home in areas that are thick with plants and have a certain amount of muck that they can hide and feel comfortable in. So I want those shelf areas to provide that. Still, I do plan to flush out those areas once the plants die back in the fall. The rocks are big enough and stacked in a way that I will have no problem running the hose in there and flushing the muck out into the deeper area where the bottom drain is. Perhaps that will then provide the test that you were suggesting.
I think TPRs have two functions. First, TPRs reaches areas where other currents, from waterfall etc, can not reach. Secondly, TPRs additional water current pushes the debris toward the drain rather than the debris just kind of coasting along, eventually getting there. I know critters can add bit to the sweeping on occasion, but I don't know if it would really be all that much to make a difference.
Bottom drains without TPRs are still worth something since they still do eventually suck in debris. So, saying bottom drains are worthless, without water current supplementals such as TPRs, is quiite simply an overstatement to exaggerate a person's persuasion in an attempt to get their point across. It is a harsh way to get your point across that can lead to misinformation, but it still effective to people. So, either people read that statement that prods them to further research the term "TPR" or simply the reader just accepts the statement depending on their motivation.
What, Waterbug harsh? No way, he's a sweetheart.
I don't know. It's all good. I'm enjoying this back and forth as I am drinking my adult beverage. It's five o' clock somewhere. :beerchug:
I must admit, it does have some entertainment value, first I'm bitter, then I'm a blind man, now I'm sad and delusional. I can't wait to find out what I'll be next?
I have an old bottom drain in my wood shop so I checked it out yesterday. Wow, it was covered in dust. So I took it outside and brushed it off and brought it back in. You know I have to admit, my shop was indeed cleaner, I mean in a hair splitting, no context, sort of way. And no TPRs either. Concrete proof TPRs are not needed to keep my wood shop clean. And by clean I mean an absolute mess. I'm a rationalizing genius.
Waterbug, that cartoon is adorable and so appropriate. Thanks for wasting your precious time on me.