String Algae

[sissy]

I believe in me ,but wonder about a lot of things i may not understand .

 

[addy1]

I worked in medical research with scientist, government grant. My seven years of college landed me the job, neurological research. Well respected researchers. Long story short, I had a group of monkeys, my study showed that the basic setup of the experiment was flawed. After two years, my group never failed the testing, they should have. The respected researchers threw out my data because it did not fit the already written paper that would get them the next federal grant money.

I quit, moved on to working in medicine.

So scientific fact ......... hummm. I rather go by what I see, what works for me.

 

[Waterbug]

Waterbug;
I don't want to dispute scientific fact, and I'm not saying anyone is wrong, but I've observed an interesting "phenomenon". For about seven years now, I've been looking after a garden center's pond division, and every year we get our hornwort from the grower about ten days before the water hyacinths are ready, so I fill two identical fibreglass tubs with water (pumped directly from three ponds used for irrigation purposes) and place the hornwort in one of them. When the hyacinths come in, they go in the second tub. Every year, without fail, the water in the hornwort tub remains crystal clear, but the water in the plant-free tub goes green within 24 hours. The only variable here is the plants. Am I missing something? Not arguing, mind you, just curious.

Refreshing. I'm a believer in scientific method and a cornerstone of that method is nothing is fact. There is only current understandings which should always be questioned. There are concepts like "accepted fact" which leaves the door open, but few things (percentage wise) would be considered absolute fact.

I do assume there is interaction between higher plants and algae, because well pretty much all living things have some interaction. But if you look at the 2 big plant-algae "facts" in pond forums, light and nutrient restriction, these are both very easy to disprove.

Light
A goldfish bowl in the living room away from a window and no grow light will often get an algae problem if not well cleaned. To humans the light level in the room might seem the same as outside, but to plants the room is extremely dark. A simple light meter can slow that algae needs an extremely low level of light. 80% plant coverage in a pond comes no where close to limiting enough light to make a pond clear. Less algae sure if carefully measured, clear no.

Nutrients
The easiest for any one to prove or disprove. Measure the nutrients in any clear pond, or the clear tub you had in the store. You will find nutrient levels well in excess of what algae require for reproduction.

Nutrient levels will normally be much lower in a pond with a bright green algae bloom than in a clear pond. Algae are plants, they consume nutrients to reproduce, to build cell walls and such. Those bright green cells all lock up nutrients. When the bloom dies and the water is clears those green cells break down pretty fast and release all those nutrients back into the water and add a lot more since they've been converting sun light into organic compounds too.

Take any pond or tub that has been green and is now clear via natural action and add fertilizer. Now nutrient levels are though the roof. In most cases the water will remain clear. I learned this the hard way while taking to grow algae for filter experiments. At the time I couldn't understand why I couldn't create green water.

So a simple water test for nutrients will tell the story. But it does also take an understanding what a low nutrient level algae requires. These are very simple plants, very good at using nutrients. No higher plant can even close close. And again, we're talking about green vs clear. Lower nutrient levels can reduce growth, but that's no where close to explaining clear.

And there's also the concept of "starving". Nutrients for the most part are only needed by plants to reproduce, they aren't needed to stay alive.

Hornwort
For me to explain why the hornwort tub is clear vs the other tub is green would make me just another internet blowhard. I have no idea. If I was near by and you were willing I would set up some experiments to try and gain some understanding. But that's not possible.

Hornwort has a very good chance of having a some negative effect on algae. I'd bet money on it anyways. Most people are talking about floaters and marginals and I think they have less chance to have a negative effect on algae. Hornwort being a submerged plant is in direct competition with algae. Single cell algae can block light and string algae can cover it blocking light, giving a home and close contact with bacteria, cause silt buildup on leaves, etc., not good. Most marine plants are thought to produce allelochemicals to fight other plants, bacteria, etc. So that's why I'd assume Hornwort has some defense. It would be an interesting experiment.

Unfortunately the tub observation is only a starting point to form a theory and a good experiment is difficult to perform. You would need clean Hornwort, meaning grown in a lab with some assurance there was no other creatures growing along with the plant. For example some macro algae and bacteria are thought to produce chemicals that kill some single cell algae.

Theories
I think it's pretty certain that the Hornwort you received came from clear water since it wouldn't grow very well in green water. So if the cause of that clear water was bacteria or macro algae it would have certainly been on the Hornwort. An interesting experiment I think would be to move the Hornwort from the clear tub to the green tub, or maybe just a couple of plants.

Whatever kept the water clear did have the advantage of starting out with algae free, and therefore algae allelochemical free, water. That would give the actor(s) the upper hand. Moving actors to the green tub would give a clue to the actors' strength against algae.

I've done this experiment with string algae. When a small handful was placed into a fairly large pond, I think 700 gal, the water went from green to clear in a single day. However, when I tried to repeat the experiment I had mixed results. Sometimes clearing, sometimes the string algae died. My conclusion is that these plants are producing allelochemicals. I'm certainly not the first person to think that, Google will provide many published studies. More work has been done with saltwater algae but still useful imo.

Another published study was done by Norm Meck. He poured water from a clear pond into containers of water from green ponds and he saw an almost instant death of single cell algae. Another super easy experiment anyone can do. Norm's experiment only showed there was some substance in the water that killed the single cell algae he had. His theory is the substance came from bacteria, a reasonable theory imo. Way better anyways than the wacked out nutrient and light theories.

Norm didn't consider allelochemicals which I think also could have been the killer. My theory it's one of these and/or a combination. Most likely a combination, only because that theme keeps coming up in nature. Few things in nature are digital.

There is a possibility allelochemicals killing algae could be coming from higher plants like marginals and floaters. I think it's a long shot as they would have little need since they beat algae by moving above the water. I think it's an even longer shot that all higher plants kill algae.

That's another problem with the forum experts' theory, saying that any higher plant can kill any algae. And also I've never read of anyone ever doing even a bad experiment on any of the plant killing algae. I've read hundreds of forum posts and web pages saying it's true, many of which cite each other. You would think given the hours, days, weeks, spent typing in these "facts" at least one person might have bothered to check. But in that world seeming right is more important than being right.

Hornwort probably isn't effective in killing algae
While I assume Hornwort does produce allelochemicals to fight algae I also think their defenses must be very weak. Hornwort was the first plant I ever purchased to add to a green pond to clear it. That was back when I still believed forum experts had a clue. The Hornwort died pretty fast, certainly didn't grow. I've read many times about people having a hard time with Hornwort dying. It grows great sometimes. I suspect it can only do well when something else removes or reduces algae.

For example in the NY Finger Lakes underwater plants took off once the Zebra Mussel removed single cell algae. Before that underwater plants barely lived at all there and water was green. A forum expert today might see the plants and the clear water and call it proof plants clear water. That's good enough data for them.

Why any of this has any importance
To me water gardening could be greatly advanced and become much more popular if more experiments were done by backyard hobbyists and there was a good debate on these subjects. The more we learn, actually learned, not just make up "fact" repeated enough times to be deemed facts, the easier ponds would be to keep. The happier people would be with ponds and the more there would be. To me that would be a good thing.

Lots of people would love to have a pond, I hear it a lot. But the really bad info repeated over and over by forum experts, dumb retailers, web site experts and even actual experts, I think drives people to fill in ponds more than it helps the hobby.

 

[brandonsdad02]

Lots of good info here, but I like to stick to has worked for me in the past to get rid of it. I don't really recall having a problem with it last year, but this was also the same time last year when my first pond was being finished...well the digging and such. I made the pond bigger this year and because of the warm and early spring, I was able to redo my pond the second weekend in March. Thats rare for Iowa to not have a foot of snow on the ground in March let alone being able to dig. My string algae was bad and I did use a chemical. Hopefully as my pond gets more developed and I learn as I go, I won't have to use chemicals.

 

[sissy]

once the pond is established and working right you should have less problems .I went for the chemicals when i started my pond and found either they worked a short while or did not work at all .So gave up on them after only a couple of months.Tried all natural and it worked and a lot less money

 

[HARO]

Waterbug;
Thanks for the prompt reply. I've always had a curious mind, and wonder about these observations. To take this a step further, both of these tubs are the same size (about 200 g.) and colour, and both held tropical pond plants over the winter, so whatever is causing the water to remain clear HAS to be on the plants. And when the Water hyacinth come in, the second tub clears up within a day or two. Both the hornwort and the hyacinths come from the same grower, and the same water supply. Both have small amounts of algae on them.I have known the couple who own this business for at least 25 years, and visit the property at least half-a-dozen times a year. In all that time, I have never seen their main pond (about an acre in size) in anything but a clear state.
Both the allelochemicals and the bacteria theories seem plausible, but unfortunately I don't have access to a lab for testing. Hoping to win a lottery soon, so I can set one up! :cheerful: Is there a simple test for nutrients in water?
I spoke to a rep for Rolf C. Hagen (Laguna) who has a theory that phosphates are a limiting substance for algae nutrition, and that without phosphates, algae can't make use of other nutrients, and die back. All interesting, but again, no lab for testing.
BTW, I'm a very poor salesman. I love to sell or advise on plants, pumps, or anything I can understand, but refused to carry the mumbo-jumbo sold in bottles for curing all pond woes. After two years I caved in to customers' demands, and now sell each bottle with the disclaimer that they probably don't need it, but people just feel better if they think they are doing something useful for their pond. Lately I've given a lot of thought to trying out your Coke-can test. I think MOST of my customers would swear it cleared their algae, and repeat it on a yearly basis!!!
John

 

[Waterbug]

To take this a step further, both of these tubs are the same size (about 200 g.) and colour, and both held tropical pond plants over the winter, so whatever is causing the water to remain clear HAS to be on the plants. And when the Water hyacinth come in, the second tub clears up within a day or two. Both the hornwort and the hyacinths come from the same grower, and the same water supply. Both have small amounts of algae on them.I have known the couple who own this business for at least 25 years, and visit the property at least half-a-dozen times a year. In all that time, I have never seen their main pond (about an acre in size) in anything but a clear state.

Question is why is it clear? Difficult to prove imo. I try to stay away from saying things like "HAS to be". The more right I think I am the more wrong I seem to be. I actually use it as test to catch myself.

Both the allelochemicals and the bacteria theories seem plausible, but unfortunately I don't have access to a lab for testing.

Testing for these chemicals is very difficult, even identifying the species of algae and bacteria is difficult. The species of nitrifying bacteria were only discovered a few years ago, 1975 I think, although it was known they must exist. I think that has to be the approach here. Try to eliminate other factors and try to get to a point where an experiment can be duplicated. Just have to keep narrowing it down.

Is there a simple test for nutrients in water?

Google "water nutrient testing" for kits and labs you can send water sample into. Sometimes a University or US Ag will do it for free and also do a very good job.

I spoke to a rep for Rolf C. Hagen (Laguna) who has a theory that phosphates are a limiting substance for algae nutrition, and that without phosphates, algae can't make use of other nutrients, and die back. All interesting, but again, no lab for testing.

There's been a ton of studies done on phosphates and algae interaction. Aquarium keepers have also done a lot in this area. Same is true for nitrogen, eliminate any one thing algae needs to reproduce and it's done for. However, for a clear pond we'd be talking about total elimination, algae need very little. That's in my category of impossible. Aquarium keepers have a chance to do it, but even they have a difficult time.

BTW, I'm a very poor salesman. I love to sell or advise on plants, pumps, or anything I can understand, but refused to carry the mumbo-jumbo sold in bottles for curing all pond woes. After two years I caved in to customers' demands, and now sell each bottle with the disclaimer that they probably don't need it, but people just feel better if they think they are doing something useful for their pond. Lately I've given a lot of thought to trying out your Coke-can test. I think MOST of my customers would swear it cleared their algae, and repeat it on a yearly basis!!!

I find it difficult too. Customers are the ones driving bad products. Lot's of manufacturers know how to produce better products but those products just can't compete with products that sound better or are cheaper.

I go back and forth. Part of me wants to bottle and sell barley extract. It would be so easy and nice bit of change too. If money means so little to people that they can't be bothered to do a little research and learning, may be it's fine to take the money. Someone is going to take it.

 

[callingcolleen1]

Waterbug, very interesting reading material.
I have had hornwort growing in the pond and in the house for many, many years, since my first fish tank when I was a kid, not kidding either! You are right, hornwort won't clear green water alone. I played with the glass jug of water in the window, watched it turn green very quick and tried to fix it by putting in hornwort. Never worked.... but that was a clean jug, like a "clean pond".

Had other big "pickle jars" that did work and grew lots of hornwort very well and never got green water or algae problems. The jars that worked very well, supporting populations of guppies, hornwort and snails had couple different things. First the clear water jars were not super clean, (not vacummed out so to speak) the bottom of the jars that worked well had a layer of guk, or pond sludge if you prefer (build up of natural waste from decaying plants, fish waste, etc.) I noticed that the jars that worked well, that had clear water also had golden water. The more that I cleaned the jars with pea green water, the worse it got. I found that if I took some of the guk or sludge and some of the water from the clear water jars ( divide the guk or sludge and half the water ) and then add the fresh water to each new jar, and hornwort and guppies, that was good. The new jars would initially be "stirred up with guk" but the guk would settle and the water would clear, and the fish would be happy, and I could continue to grow hornwort.
Ponds are very much the same. Pond that are too "clean" will have more problems than ponds like mine, that have some leaf litter, and golden water. You will always see to the bottom of my three foot pond, and down there is always some leaf litter and crab apples that fell in there last year. I do take some sludge out in the early spring with my net, but never all, and never change my water, just add fresh water as needed. A pond was never supposed to be a sterile "hole in the ground".

 

[crsublette]

Sounds like your sludge muck stuff might have had some of this allelochemical and bacteria that fight algae.

Now we just need an Allelochemical Bacteria cultures in a bottle!!

(( sounds like studies are still ongoing about this allelochemical bacteria stuff.

 

[crsublette]

I find it difficult too. Customers are the ones driving bad products. Lot's of manufacturers know how to produce better products but those products just can't compete with products that sound better or are cheaper.

I go back and forth. Part of me wants to bottle and sell barley extract. It would be so easy and nice bit of change too. If money means so little to people that they can't be bothered to do a little research and learning, may be it's fine to take the money. Someone is going to take it.

If "lots of manufacturers know how to produce better products" to fix algae problems, then they will be competing with the various oxidizers and algacide products, heh, not with barley extract. If there were better products, then the products would be out there commercially already, and, if it was the "fix to algae", then I bet it could not stay a secret for long and a multitude of third party studies would pop up to verify the results.

I remember from reading when Potassium Permanganate was the big deal to use and now only used on a case by case basis and I am still told PP is the cheapest out in the market, just risky. I think the risk of PP is the major reason why ponders have gone to other, more mild, medications that still does the job.

If manufacturers knew of a better product that is the "fix to algae" with very minor potential risks, and it is not priced to the moon, then I bet customers will choose it over any oxidizer or algacide very quick due to the potential risks introduced by oxidizers and algacides.

 

[callingcolleen1]

Very cool, I knew I had good bacteria, never new his name! Its getting bottled right now, ha ha ha

 

[crsublette]

Send me a gallon of it !!! Apparently my new water feature, initial cycling almost finished, lacks the allelochemical/algae fighting bacteria action. Grr, my string algae is becoming almost a foot long and I gotta give it a little of that toilet brush action.

I will try that with the Hornwort. Anyone know of more plants producing allelochemical ??

 

[Waterbug]

Lot's of manufacturers know how to produce better products but those products just can't compete with products that sound better or are cheaper.

If manufacturers knew of a better product that is the "fix to algae" with very minor potential risks, and it is not priced to the moon, then I bet customers will choose it over any oxidizer or algacide very quick due to the potential risks introduced by oxidizers and algacides.

Who are you quoting with "fix to algae"?

And there's the dilemma water garden product manufacturers have. They can't sell into a market where there's really no desire or interest in learning. That market is dominated by people who have little or no interest in how a pond works until they have a problem. Then they want to buy a bottle of something with a pretty label and dump it into their pond without even reading the label.

You see almost the complete opposite in the higher end Koi pond market. Barley use in high end Koi...come on, be serious.

Green water for example has a 100% effective and safe method of total elimination, UV. But is far, far too complex for most people. Too complex to even hire someone to install it. Lots of people buy and install them never reading the manual much less have any understanding of who they work, the volume of water in the pond or even what GPH means. They can't even be bothered to use Google when it's easier to drop into a forum and ask other people to do it for them. Then they're unhappy when the answer is more than a sentence.

It's completely unrealistic to try and raise the bar when the water gardening hobby is dominated by people repeating the old tired never worked never will but super easy to buy, dump and forget "solutions".

 

[crsublette]

"Fix to algae" in quotes since one does not exist that allow plant life and fish to live.

Everyone is "fixing" the symptoms, once algae presents itself in noticeable population, then something is done.

I do not need to learn how ProForm-C is chemically structured nor do I need to know exactly why the particular diseases and fungal infections react as they do. When the fancy Koi enthusiasts have problems, they go to a vet, are told how to treat their pond water, and just follow the instructions.

I read this type of discussion all the time about "weed" pre-emergent compounds. "Weed" in quotes since it is such a volatile classification. I do not need to know the organic chemistry between the seed and product; I just follow the instructions and good to go.

Lack of businesses educating their consumer. If they did this, then the consumer will likely purchase the product or upgrade if they have the money.

 

[Waterbug]

So I've been on the fence...but now I'm thinking maybe I should start selling barley straw, barley extract, bacteria in bottle. The bacteria in a bottle thing does take some marketing to convince people, so it would be difficult for me to complete. But barley is barley, a commodity. Most barley straw bales sell in the $10-50 range, lowest is around $6. What if I sold barley bales for $2? Would people buy it? I could corner the market! I mean it's a commodity right, cheaper is better for the exact same thing right?

But I'm thinking I wouldn't sell hardy any. It just sounds too cheap...must be something wrong. And that's why barley bales sell in $10-50 range and not for $2 which would still be a huge profit. In the water garden market barley is not a commodity because there are almost no repeat customers.