Still losing fish.

[MitchM]

Mmathis, the remaining fish have to live with their gills in the shape that they're in. Their gills have been damaged, or chemically burned, so to speak.
It's like you or myself having lungs that have been damaged and can only operate at 25% capacity (for example).

That's why it's so important to make sure that there is an established biofilm in place before introducing fish to a new environment.

Also, Mmathis, why are you suggesting to do "water changes like crazy"?

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[stonecreek1]

I do have an external Filter. It is for 1000 gallons, (Jaebo CF-10) so I thought it would be a little over kill. I have a 400gph pump pulling into the filter, so the water even though it is a 300 gallon stock tank, there is only about 250-275 gallons filled, should be circulating the entire tank each hour. I have two stone pads also at the bottom to give more water movement and oxygen. The fish that is in the picture definitely has clamped gills this morning. She is still just floating in the hyacinth breathing rapid on her side. I would definitely like to do anything I can to prevent more damage/death to the fish. Dave 54 l don't understand the microscope. Along the bottom it says 10/0.25 and under that 160/0.17. So I am not sure what it is. There isn't a name on the unit.
So, when I sweep I lose a small amount of water. Should I continue to keep the tank clean and not let a "sludge" build up on the bottom? Should I add salt? Is there a way to check the salt level? I do have well water that goes through a saltwater softener, so it may be naturally getting salt? Should I do water changes? Is so how much??? Like I said, I understand that some of these guys are literally a quarter of an inch big, and some are weaker and may not make it, but I really would like to give them the best care I can. While I am here, I ordered a good wheatgerm Koi food that is from Japan, Hikari Wheat germ. Is what I am doing ok???? I soak the food, and then smash it up into almost a power for the little ones, and then the bigger guys can just pull apart the larger pieces themselves.... Is that OK? I started feeding a small amount about 4 times a days. They ALWAYS seem hungry. Am I doing the right thing there? Everyone thanks for your input. Again, I guess I screwed up, not realizing that the water that they were in outside, wouldn't have enough bacteria for them when brought inside, but, whatever I can do or prevent more problems would be helpful. So many of them do look happy and active. But, I know there is still flashing, so I feel like something may be not right. I actually drove all the way up to the pond store yesterday with sick fish, and water samples, only to see a sign on the door, CLOSED TILL MARCH!!!

 

[Tula]

If there is nothing to be done for these fish, and they are suffering, is it best to consider a humane euthanasia @MitchM , @Meyer Jordan and @Dave 54 ?

 

[Meyer Jordan]

If your parameters remain at the levels given in the opening post of this thread then water quality will not be an issue. But as MitchM stated, the damage has been done and there, sadly, there is nothing that will undo it. The fish that are still flashing are those with the most gill damage. Those fish that were lucky enough to only suffer minor irritation or damage should recover, but there is no treatment that will speed up the healing process other than maintaining good water quality. Here time, and only time, is needed for those fish to heal. At the risk of being too blunt, those fish that are flashing and/or sustained major gill damage will never completely recover and will eventually succumb to their injuries or secondary infections. Euthanasia should be considered as a humane way to end their suffering.

 

[Mmathis]

Also, Mmathis, why are you suggesting to do "water changes like crazy"?

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In this case? Because it sounds like there is no filtration.

 

[Mmathis]

If your parameters remain at the levels given in the opening post of this thread then water quality will not be an issue. But as MitchM stated, the damage has been done and there, sadly, there is nothing that will undo it. The fish that are still flashing are those with the most gill damage. Those fish that were lucky enough to only suffer minor irritation or damage should recover, but there is no treatment that will speed up the healing process other than maintaining good water quality. Here time, and only time, is needed for those fish to heal. At the risk of being too blunt, those fish that are flashing and/or sustained major gill damage will never completely recover and will eventually succumb to their injuries or secondary infections. Euthanasia should be considered as a humane way to end their suffering.

I believe the fish that are flashing are the ones in the pond, not these babies -- at least I think that's what I read. @stonecreek1 can you clarify which fish are flashing? Is it the fish in the pond or the fry in the stock tank?

@stonecreek1 Using the microscope has a learning curve. What exactly are you looking at -- are you taking a scraping from the fish? From the fry or from the adults? Those numbers have to do with the power [among other things] of that particular lens. How many lenses does this scope have? The number you gave is for a mid-range magnification. If there were parasites, you would be able to see them at that mag and they would be actively moving around on the slide. And that's about all you need to be looking for.

BUT.....

Now, this is just my opinion, here, so keep that in mind...... Personally, I don't think that you need to worry about the microscope at this point. Yes, all fish-keepers should eventually purchase one, and yes all fish-keepers should learn how to scrape fish and use the scope. If you happen to see something on a slide, that's great [well, not really...], but for now I think that it's just adding to your stress level -- I mean, that's a personal thing, and you may be fine, so it's OK, but in general......

First of all you have to know how to take a good scraping, and that takes practice. You have to know how to use the scope -- also takes practice. Then you have to know what you're looking for -- more practice and time spent just looking under the scope..... If you did an adequate scraping and didn't see anything, then there probably isn't anything there to see. Which brings us back around to the general water quality issues of ammonia, etc.

My advice on the microscope [my "microscopic" advice for those who will disagree with me ] is to wait until you get this problem under control. Do some research on scopes, decide what you need [mine has 3 objective lenses -- the ones with the numbers on them -- for 40x, 100x, and 400x magnification], and what you want and can afford [I wish now that I'd gotten one that I can hook to the computer]. Then get the scope and just practice with it during times when you don't have sick fish. I have practiced anesthetizing as well as scraping some healthy fish just so I would feel comfortable and confident doing so. The fish survivied and so did I . I've had a lot of help & support from several members regarding my adventures with the microscope!

So, moving on! You are learning and you are willing to learn [or you wouldn't be here]! Try not blame yourself for anything -- it happens to ALL of us, it hurts, but it makes us better fish mommies & daddies in the long run!

 

[barryian]

Good afternoon all. I am still at a loss on what is killing my baby koi. The water permiter as of this morning was:
pH. 7.8
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20

I brought in a microscope and have tried doing a scape but I seriously don't see anything? I am not sure the microscope is strong enough. My husband teaches and borrowed it from the school. I think they have a parasite because they continue to flash along the bottom and rocks and sides of the tank. Some seem to just be hanging at the bottom not to active. I am not sure what to do. I looked up and there are no fish vets anywhere that could possibly look a a specimen for me under their scope. I am just not sure what to do!?!?!? Thanks for any advice

I haven't read from top to bottom but ... How high was the ammonia initially and did you use a binder for the ammonia. This could be initial gill damage, it doesn't have to be bacterial. They don't look like there are physical signs. I find a large part of the time, problems are water quality related and not necessarily bacteria. Also, what is your kh? Is there a large ph fluctuation from morning to night time? You also have no filtration in the small inside tank?

Oops ... I'm editing and adding a line here as I missed Meyer's response. Spot on ...

 

[stonecreek1]

In this case? Because it sounds like there is no filtration.

There is filtration. It is a Jaebo CF-10 filter. It is for a 1000 gallon pond. So, it should be ample filtration. It has bioballs, two media filters, and a 13-Watt UVC light.

 

[stonecreek1]

I haven't read from top to bottom but ... How high was the ammonia initially and did you use a binder for the ammonia. This could be initial gill damage, it doesn't have to be bacterial. They don't look like there are physical signs. I find a large part of the time, problems are water quality related and not necessarily bacteria. Also, what is your kh? Is there a large ph fluctuation from morning to night time? You also have no filtration in the small inside tank?

Oops ... I'm editing and adding a line here as I missed Meyer's response. Spot on ...

I believe the fish that are flashing are the ones in the pond, not these babies -- at least I think that's what I read. @stonecreek1 can you clarify which fish are flashing? Is it the fish in the pond or the fry in the stock tank?

@stonecreek1 Using the microscope has a learning curve. What exactly are you looking at -- are you taking a scraping from the fish? From the fry or from the adults? Those numbers have to do with the power [among other things] of that particular lens. How many lenses does this scope have? The number you gave is for a mid-range magnification. If there were parasites, you would be able to see them at that mag and they would be actively moving around on the slide. And that's about all you need to be looking for.

BUT.....

Now, this is just my opinion, here, so keep that in mind...... Personally, I don't think that you need to worry about the microscope at this point. Yes, all fish-keepers should eventually purchase one, and yes all fish-keepers should learn how to scrape fish and use the scope. If you happen to see something on a slide, that's great [well, not really...], but for now I think that it's just adding to your stress level -- I mean, that's a personal thing, and you may be fine, so it's OK, but in general......

First of all you have to know how to take a good scraping, and that takes practice. You have to know how to use the scope -- also takes practice. Then you have to know what you're looking for -- more practice and time spent just looking under the scope..... If you did an adequate scraping and didn't see anything, then there probably isn't anything there to see. Which brings us back around to the general water quality issues of ammonia, etc.

My advice on the microscope [my "microscopic" advice for those who will disagree with me ] is to wait until you get this problem under control. Do some research on scopes, decide what you need [mine has 3 objective lenses -- the ones with the numbers on them -- for 40x, 100x, and 400x magnification], and what you want and can afford [I wish now that I'd gotten one that I can hook to the computer]. Then get the scope and just practice with it during times when you don't have sick fish. I have practiced anesthetizing as well as scraping some healthy fish just so I would feel comfortable and confident doing so. The fish survivied and so did I . I've had a lot of help & support from several members regarding my adventures with the microscope!

So, moving on! You are learning and you are willing to learn [or you wouldn't be here]! Try not blame yourself for anything -- it happens to ALL of us, it hurts, but it makes us better fish mommies & daddies in the long run!

The lens on the microscope is the only lens. So I will just hold off on worrying about that for now. Thanks for your info.

 

[stonecreek1]

I haven't read from top to bottom but ... How high was the ammonia initially and did you use a binder for the ammonia. This could be initial gill damage, it doesn't have to be bacterial. They don't look like there are physical signs. I find a large part of the time, problems are water quality related and not necessarily bacteria. Also, what is your kh? Is there a large ph fluctuation from morning to night time? You also have no filtration in the small inside tank?

Oops ... I'm editing and adding a line here as I missed Meyer's response. Spot on ...

The ammonia was anywhere from 2-4. I did put in Stress Coat during that time. And Salt. I don't have a KH test. But the PH is totally steady. And I have a Jaebo CF-10 External filter. It is equipped with Bio Balls, 2 filter media, and a 13 Watt UVC light. I have also added Beneficial bacteria to the filter to help speed up the cycle process.

 

[barryian]

The ammonia was anywhere from 2-4. I did put in Stress Coat during that time. And Salt. I don't have a KH test. But the PH is totally steady. And I have a Jaebo CF-10 External filter. It is equipped with Bio Balls, 2 filter media, and a 13 Watt UVC light. I have also added Beneficial bacteria to the filter to help speed up the cycle process.

StressCoat and salt won't address the ammonia problem. Salt will make nitrites less toxic. It really appears to be ammonia damage to the gills from what is an extremely high ammonia level ... Hope for the best ....

 

[stonecreek1]

I believe the fish that are flashing are the ones in the pond, not these babies -- at least I think that's what I read. @stonecreek1 can you clarify which fish are flashing? Is it the fish in the pond or the fry in the stock tank?

@stonecreek1 Using the microscope has a learning curve. What exactly are you looking at -- are you taking a scraping from the fish? From the fry or from the adults? Those numbers have to do with the power [among other things] of that particular lens. How many lenses does this scope have? The number you gave is for a mid-range magnification. If there were parasites, you would be able to see them at that mag and they would be actively moving around on the slide. And that's about all you need to be looking for.

BUT.....

Now, this is just my opinion, here, so keep that in mind...... Personally, I don't think that you need to worry about the microscope at this point. Yes, all fish-keepers should eventually purchase one, and yes all fish-keepers should learn how to scrape fish and use the scope. If you happen to see something on a slide, that's great [well, not really...], but for now I think that it's just adding to your stress level -- I mean, that's a personal thing, and you may be fine, so it's OK, but in general......

First of all you have to know how to take a good scraping, and that takes practice. You have to know how to use the scope -- also takes practice. Then you have to know what you're looking for -- more practice and time spent just looking under the scope..... If you did an adequate scraping and didn't see anything, then there probably isn't anything there to see. Which brings us back around to the general water quality issues of ammonia, etc.

My advice on the microscope [my "microscopic" advice for those who will disagree with me ] is to wait until you get this problem under control. Do some research on scopes, decide what you need [mine has 3 objective lenses -- the ones with the numbers on them -- for 40x, 100x, and 400x magnification], and what you want and can afford [I wish now that I'd gotten one that I can hook to the computer]. Then get the scope and just practice with it during times when you don't have sick fish. I have practiced anesthetizing as well as scraping some healthy fish just so I would feel comfortable and confident doing so. The fish survivied and so did I . I've had a lot of help & support from several members regarding my adventures with the microscope!

So, moving on! You are learning and you are willing to learn [or you wouldn't be here]! Try not blame yourself for anything -- it happens to ALL of us, it hurts, but it makes us better fish mommies & daddies in the long run!

Also, I should respond. The was flashing was by both the fish in the outdoor pond, and the babies indoors. So initially what happened was we have a friend (an older gentleman) that has been ponding for years. He had come over to see the pond, and when I told him we had babies he didn't believe us, because the pond was only several weeks old. We originally purchased fish from 3 locations. So he noticed several of the outdoor large koi flashing. He thought we may have brought something (parasite) into the pond from one of the fish we bought. So he had given me the PP and told me to treat the pond, but he had no idea how much to use on the 20,000 gallon pond. So, I never did anything. Again, my husband and I are total novice at this. So, at that time he advised that the tiny tiny fry would not make it thru the winter because they were centimeters big and would not go to the bottom and would most likely freeze in the rocks. So that is when we decided to set up a winter home for the babies to give them a chance and to enjoy watching them all winter as the snow flies!!! So we got everything set up and caught as many babies as we could. So by the time I have dealt with all this, the big koi have taken hibernation under the large bridge we put in the bottom of the pond for the winter. So there is very little activity (if any) in the pond to see if there is flashing still. So that is why I wonder, because the babies have been flashing all along, if I could have had a problem outside with a parasite, and by using that pond water, rocks from there, and the hyacinth I may have brought a problem indoors with me. I respect and appreciate all the knowledge and help, but I would honestly tell you that culling would be a total last ditch resort. I am the type that rescues hurt birds, and won't even kill a fly!! So, I would have to have a lot of dying fish to do something extreme. I thought that out of 250, that only loosing maybe 12 was good! I figure some have to be born weaker than others. So, many, many are swimming, eating, and seem content. Maybe I am overstressing over losing a few that may have suffered damage while going through the cycling problems??? I just don't know!!!!

 

[MitchM]

Just to clear things up....
My understanding is that all these fish are inside, the tub has fully cycled, there is a filter, and this is a continuation of events from this thread:
https://www.gardenpondforum.com/threads/good-morning.18322/

edit, I see we posted at the same time, stonecreek. You're doing fine, btw

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[bettasngoldfish]

In this case? Because it sounds like there is no filtration.

When a tank is cycling with live fish living in it you really should be doing water changes to help lessen the damage/effect the cycling process has on the fish. And when fish are sick and in a treatment/hospital tank water changes are recommended as well.

Even if there is matured filtration on the tank it still needs to have water changes, just sayin

BTW, I'm thinking of changing my screen name to QueenWaterChanger

 

[Meyer Jordan]

And when fish are sick and in a treatment/hospital tank water changes are recommended as well.

One of the few instances where water changes may be indicated, depending on treatment regime.