Spring Craziness or a Problem with the Pond?

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Diesel, thanks for your explanation. My prettiest biggest fish, the white and gold one that jumped out and died, was a koi. The other two are gold fish. I had noticed the mustache. Kind of like a cat fish.
 

callingcolleen1

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I would never take my ponds apart and scrub the liner, you need that good soft green algae on the liner to keep pond healthy. In future, just net the bottom of the pond junk out gently with net, clean filters when needed, and just do small water changes at a time. I always use twice the recommended amount of water conditioner, especially when adding LOTS of water, you never can to too careful as some city water is heavily treated.

Good luck with the fish, sorry to hear you lost such a pretty fish.
 
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Now it's starting to sound more like this all was just spawning behavior.

Here's the problem, fish gasping at the surface can be perfectly normal for some period of time. If they're gasping for more than say an hour non-stop there's problem. Unfortunately most posts like this just say "they're gasping". Never enough details. That leads to guesses, which leads to fixes, which leads to dead fish when there never was a problem. Fish that stay underwater probably don't have a gill problem unless they no longer have the strength to swim which doesn't seem to be the case.

I went to a pond specialty shop, Inland Reef, described how we cleaned the pond and how my fish reacted.

I'm not sure I exactly understood, but it seems he said cleaning it thoroughly like we did, even though at least 1/3 of the water we put back was from the old pond, loses some of the good stuff in the bottom that they're used to.

He sold me a bottle of API Quick Start. He estimated my pond has 187 gallons since it's 14" deep and 5' across. Told me to put 18 capfuls in, which I just did.
Another bottle of stuff. Here's the deal, people who sell stuff want to sell stuff. They have to sell stuff. Now I'm not saying retailers are crooks, lets say they just prefer to believe what companies tell them and ignore everything else.

API Quick Start definitely has a use. Like starting up an aquarium in a commercial building. You come in an night or weekend setup the aquarium and add a ton of fish so it all looks good. That's a big fish load, producing lots of ammonia. Adding bacteria rather than waiting one or two days is worth the $$$ and risk to water quality.

In a pond no way. You already have the bacteria that are suppose to be in the bottle. Which means what you added was basically just organic waste. The bacteria need ammonia to live and reproduce. There was already bacteria doing this because it's not really possible to stop them. They're everywhere, on your keyboard, desk, pond, air, everywhere.

Plus these things aren't regulated at all. I don't know exactly how API or anyone else make their product. But here is the best way to make the same thing, only it'll be better because it hasn't sat in a warehouse for weeks/months who knows. Take a glass and fill it 2/3 full with tap water, chlorine is perfectly OK. Add say 1/8 cup of pee. Yours, the dog's, whoever. Wait 1 week. You have yourself a nice batch of nitrifying bacteria. When you dump that into your pond 99% of them will die and feed bad bacteria. They die because there's not enough ammonia, or O2 or KH or something they need. If those food sources were there the bacteria already there would grow and reproduce.

I so have to stop posting and starting stuff in bottles. It would be a lot easier and I'd make some money. For sure I have to stop posting in sick fish threads.

Glad your fish seem better.
 
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Two surviving fish are lurking at the bottom now, like they did last Saturday when the pond was first re-worked. I don't know if they're exhausted from racing around the surface this week or now able to breathe down there. I'll take a water sample today for testing.
 
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Sue Ellen we all start out the way you have here and we all make mistakes both as a novice and as veterran fish keepers with many years under their belts so dont go knocking yourself its human nature .
If you test your pond on a regular basis using the drop test liquid kits it'll give you an idea as to just what is happening in your pond at any given time do regular partial water changes using the de chlorinator/chloromine each and every time.
With periodic maintenance to your filter and in reality you cant go wrong fish keeping isnt rocket science as some would have you believe but plain old common scense
Feed as much as your fish will eat in 5 minutes any left over remove from the pond read as much as you can on the hobby put it into practice and you wont go wrong (y)
A good friend of mine has this saying become a keeper of water before becoming a keeper of fish another if in doubt do a waterchange both offer good advice:)


Dave
 
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Thanks, Dave! I won't give up. Will try to learn!

Testing showed pH was high, but not unusually so. The ammonia level was very high. They recommended bailing about 1/2 of the water, replacing it with tap water treated for chlorine. Then add a bottle of stuff called ammonia lock (it was only $5), which won't remove the ammonia, but will help fish not be hurt by it.

Nitrite levels were fine. So that spares my neighbors the sight of me peeing in my pond late at night. J/K, waterbug. I saw your suggestion of putting small amount of urine in a cup with water, let set to form bacteria which the bad bacteria will eat and die.
 
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Kind of curious what you consider a high ammonia level is? And pH for that matter.

If I remember correctly you added something to remove the chlorine? And you did a water change and added more dechlorinator (I don't know which one). That doesn't actually remove chlorine as much as it converts into other things, one of which is ammonia. These products also contain a ammonia binder that makes the generated ammonia safe. This binder in the dechlorinator is same stuff in Ammonia Lock.

Ammonia binders (dechlorinator, Ammonia Lock, etc.) make ammonia non-toxic to fish, but the ammonia remains in the water. Testing for ammonia will show ammonia, maybe high (whatever a person feels is "high"). So tomorrow, next week, you may again test for ammonia, see it's high, do more water changes, add more Ammonia Lock. Eventually the bacteria in the will probably be able to overcome all this and actually start to lower the ammonia and hopefully you will feel better and stop doing water changes and stop adding stuff.

Dechlorinator, Ammonia Lock, and other things have uses. But there are also drawbacks. These generally use acid as part of what they do, they mess with the water chemistry, and in general make it difficult for nitrifying bacteria to get started, that's the stuff you added from API on top of the nitrifying bacteria that were already in the pond and probably struggling because of the ammonia binders. So down the road you could actually have an ammonia and/or nitrite problem. But now it's really tricky because when you test for ammonia you'll have no idea if it's a safe level or a dangerous level. There are special test kits for telling whether you have safe or toxic because you won't be able to tell how much is bound and how much isn't. Something like MultiTest Ammonia from Seachem can tell the difference.

The last issue is the acid in these products. Your pH is high but that doesn't really tell you much, only what the pH in the water sample was. If the water has low KH it means the water isn't buffered against pH swings. For example, measuring the pH of distilled water is almost impossible at home. One minute the pH is 12 and a minute later it's 4. That's because pH is measuring the difference of something in the water (ions) not the amount of something. The less there is the more likely the test is off. KH measures the amount of the thing pH is trying to measure. So if you just measure KH you get more info, better info imo.

I say all that because you've been adding maybe a lot of acid and you've now added a lot of ammonia binder. That lowers KH. If KH gets low pH can swing. You test high today and low tomorrow. That stresses fish and also the nitrifying bacteria. KH is also one of the things nitrifying bacteria require in order to convert ammonia, so if KH is low the nitrifying bacteria will be slow and you could have an ammonia/nitirte problem down the road. And you're back to needing a better ammonia test kit to tell.

I know that all sounds complex, bah, bah, bah, nerd talk. I'm just trying to give you a sense of what you're doing to your pond and fish. I don't actually know because I don't know the actual numbers from tests, exact products, amounts, etc. Most people don't want to know any of this stuff. Luckily ponds don't actually need any of this stuff so for most people pond keeping is pretty simple. The problem is you're getting little bits of advice here and there. If you tell someone "I have high ammonia, what do I do?" the answer is water changes and ammonia binder. Standard answer. But if you also add "I add dechlorinator" if the person knows anything about ponds they can change the advice to "oh, then the ammonia is already bound, you don't have to do anything".

Luckily fish are very tough and can usually survive tons of cures being thrown at them.

One pretty safe thing you might consider is netting the pond so the remaining fish decide to jump. They can do that when water quality is bad in the hope of finding better water. I know you don't want to consider stopping the adding of stuff to the pond so a net is a little insurance.
 
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Waterbug, you are fantastically knowledgeable. I hope I didn't offend you with my little joke about not offending the neighbors.

I didn't test the water myself, but took a sample to a pond specialty shop. The guy had an impressive array of chemicals to add to my pond's water sample. Then he showed me how the resulting color matched or didn't match colors on a chart. That's how he said (I think, didn't write it down, which is pretty needed at my age) the nitrites were fine, the pH was a little high, ammonia was high.

I always add a capful or so of dechlorinator when I add tap water to my pond.

The two surviving goldfish did seem to get livelier after I removed half the pond water and replaced it.

I'm constantly checking on them and now they seem to be putting their head toward the bottom of the pond and tails upward. I hope this is not the last step before their demise. The one had such a terrible list to the side earlier this week, but that's pretty much corrected itself. However, it's almost like their sense of balance has been affected by all the missteps this week.
 
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Gulping air can cause listing, even being belly up.

I hope you got the gist of the chemicals. Adding tap water adds chlorine. The dechlorinator converts the chlorine to ammonia. The dechlorinator almost certainly has another chemical to make the ammonia safe. But tests will show you have ammonia, but it's hopefully safe ammonia.

If you have a tub you can add tap water to it, maybe half full and fill the rest with pond water. The pond water contains stuff the chlorine reacts to so the chlorine is used up. Then you test that water with a chlorine test kits, less than $10. They have strips or drops. When the chlorine is at or near 0 you can dump that into the pond to top off. It's way cheaper and safer. And without all the ammonia lock stuff you can then test ammonia and know if you have a problem.

Another thing people do is let the hose just drip into the pond, near a pump, into a waterfall. A gal or less per hour. That gives time for the chlorine to dilute and react with algae, bacteria and other stuff and go away naturally.

One note about taking a sample to the store...pH in particular will often be changed a lot when it's shaken. If you instead test KH you don't have to worry about pH which is very misleading especially with inexperienced like you're find in pet store and such.
 
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They are doing better this morning! The water is clearer. They're still lurking toward the bottom, but not tails up. My friend Bob said they always lurked like that. I just didn't know it because I had a plastic step stool in there for them to hide under, once I took the de-icer out that they had liked to hide under. I think they may make it!

Thanks for all the suggestions!

Waterbug, I'm sure you're right about the chemicals. I'm just one of those people who feels compelled to DO something, whether it's for my children or my fish. I go out and look at the finny children several times a day. Enjoy them so much. This is my first year with fish and a pond.
 

addy1

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I go out and look at the finny children several times a day. Enjoy them so much. This is my first year with fish and a pond.

You will learn as all of us have.
I have had multiple ponds (you think I would know better), when I built this one, used well water, let it cycle for a month or so, never thought anything about tossing some fish in. Well they all died, that is when I found out our well water has a great ph of 5.5, I put those poor fish in a acid bath. Another lesson learned, never assume the water is good that you are using.
 
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Waterbug, I'm sure you're right about the chemicals. I'm just one of those people who feels compelled to DO something, whether it's for my children or my fish. I go out and look at the finny children several times a day. Enjoy them so much. This is my first year with fish and a pond.
Not to worry. Virtually everyone who posts in forums about sick fish does the exact same thing. It's pretty hard to read. Luckily your fish are doing OK which is great. Koi and Goldfish are very tough fish thankfully.
 
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I bought 3 small koi at WalMart, PetCo and PetSmart. They've joined my larger two goldfish and seem to be getting along fine, despite freezing temperatures the last two nights. I guess they are tough! Hope this is not too many (5) for my small, 6' round x14" deep, pond.

I heard a funny tip at PetCo when I described my mistake of scrubbing the liner and eliminating 'good bacteria which eat the ammonia. The salesclerk said to add a couple of jiggers of cheap vodka! Makes for happy fish, I guess.
 
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I bought 3 small koi at WalMart, PetCo and PetSmart. They've joined my larger two goldfish and seem to be getting along fine, despite freezing temperatures the last two nights. I guess they are tough! Hope this is not too many (5) for my small, 6' round x14" deep, pond.

I heard a funny tip at PetCo when I described my mistake of scrubbing the liner and eliminating 'good bacteria which eat the ammonia. The salesclerk said to add a couple of jiggers of cheap vodka! Makes for happy fish, I guess.

3 small koi will become 3 big koi in a hurry
 

addy1

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They will outgrow that pond, but enjoy them while you can. Vodka? lol
 

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