Spring Craziness or a Problem with the Pond?

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I babied 3 beautiful koi/goldfish (what is the difference between them?) through the first winter with the aid of a deicer and pond feeder adviser. I even paid to have their pond deepened last Saturday. It was only 11" deep and approx. 4' x 6'. Now it is 14" deep, more round and with same depth overall. But strange things have been happening!

First, the most beautiful, an 11" long white fish with orange spots, jumped out of the pond and died before I found it.

The other two act weird. I thought maybe they were agitated because of the one's jumping out. But they circle around the surface of the water with their mouths opening and closing, like they're gasping for oxygen. I have the same filter/pump in the pond as before. Also, they don't seem to be eating. I actually watched one grab some food from the surface, then spit it out slightly below the surface ('PTOOEY!). I even bought another container of food, but I still don't think they're eating and they seem very upset. If one can tell when a gold fish is upset..

Thank you for any guidance on this. I am so upset that THEY'RE upset.
 
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Need a bit more info but did they save the old water and then add it back in with the new water when made deeper? If not it is a water issue with the fish not liking it at all. Most likely a large swing in the PH of the water. I do not know where you live but you were lucky at 11" that they survived the winter. Sorry to say the 14" will not help that much. I still think you need it a bit deeper then that. Do you have any test kits to check the water?

I would not put any food at all in there at the moment until you get things a bit better.

Also do you have well water or tap water?
 
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Yes, we scooped up the fish with a bucket and put them in a large container that had water from the pond. Then they emptied the rest of the water that was in the pond, spread the liner in my driveway and scrubbed it with algae control. They scooped the fish again and put them in a garbage bag, which we floated in the re-filled pond for a couple of hours to get temperatures similar. They are definitely traumatized but I don't know why. We were as careful as we could be and read internet before attempting.

I thought maybe it could be breeding season and that's why they seem so agitated. The large orange one just keeps circling as fast as he can, floating near the surface and 'gasping.' The somewhat smaller one follows but does not seem as upset.

I have a pH tester somewhere for my garden. Wouldn't be the same thing, would it? Maybe Lowe's has it.

I have tap water. I use a 'water safe' product to clean the chlorine. Also use barley extract, which clears cloudiness generally, but the new pond seems very very cloudy.

I think the de-icer helped my fish through the winter because we had terrible fluctuations in temperature. One of the worst winters in recent years in my area of lowland (by a river) WV.
 

sissy

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could be spawning I lost one to that over 9 years ago .First time I found it right away and second time I did not see it
 
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I'm afraid I'm going to lose the other two.

The biggest (the one who seems so frantic) is listing to one side and it's getting worse.

I had dinner with friends (no fish!) and they thought too it was a pH problem. Still strange, because they had more water and much of it was old water from their previous pond where they were healthy. One said the listing fish has ich and will doubtless die. He's too far gone.

I'm going to get a pH tester tomorrow, as well as medicine for ich. Maybe I can save the third fish. He/she seems to be lurking below the surface.
 
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I don't have a lot of experience, but I would be worried if the fish look like they are gasping air. You said that they scrubbed down the liner and you changed the water, so to me, it sounds like a new pond all over again. There could be ammonia problems. I don't know if only PH would do this, I think there's something else going on. I hope whatever they scrubbed the liner with was okay for the fish and properly rinsed after.

Oh no, I just read your post above. I'm so sorry, I hope they make it through the night so you can help them in the morning. Please do update us with your findings.
 
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Normally a fish jumping out of a pond that has new water is pretty standard. People cover new ponds and temp tanks with netting to prevent that (future reference).

Gasping for air can sometimes be normal. It's hard sometime for people to tell, but it sure sounds like your fish are really gasping.

Fish not eating, assuming the water temp is pretty high (above say 40F) is not a good sign. Fish listing is a really bad sign, like not going to be around tomorrow type bad.

So in this case all the sometimes normal symptoms all point to a real problem. They can't get air. They can gulp air for awhile but not long term. May in WV I assume the water isn't super hot so I assume the O2 level in the water is fine. I wish I knew when the fish jumped out of the pond in relation to being put into the pond. Because of the other symptoms it's a pretty good guess it jumped out because there was a problem with the water and it wasn't "normal" jumping.

The pH may have been an issue. But in general dumping fish into water with a much different pH is more of a stresser. It can kill fish outright, but not often. So it doesn't sound like pH. And besides at this point testing the pH doesn't help much because you don't know what the original water was so you can't try to match pH. Beside, its been 5 days. They would have adjusted by now unless the pH is really insane. The last thing you want to do now is start dumping stuff into the water to try and change pH.

What fits better to me is their gills have been damaged. From chlorine in the water. I don't know what the "algae control" was but maybe that, or a combination. I don't know what 'water safe' product you used "to clean the chlorine" but I'd guess that was the problem. The barley could be adding to the trouble. The thing about barley is it could be anything. Not like there's any kind of regulation about what is in a barley product. It's a wildcard.

The fish have only been in this water 5 days and these symptoms started some time ago, water is probably pretty cool, so I wouldn't guess ammonia, but it certainly should be tested regularly for a pond that size...but I don't know what size the fish are, or even if they're Koi or Goldfish, so can't say how important ammonia testing is. But I'd guess important.

Sure doesn't sound like spawning. Gulping air doesn't help their mood. And the swimming behavior doesn't sound right. But I'm only going by what's written, I can't see it.

Other outside chances would be there was an ammonia problem in the temp tank and that damaged their ability to use O2.

Being in WV I'd have to wonder if the tap water is a problem. You all just had that whole poison water thing and I see they just raised the amount of selenium they allow from coal runoff. It doesn't really sound like WV cares much about water quality. So that could cause the water provider to really push water limits, like adding a lot more chlorine or screwing with pH to try and make water safer. Those things can be a problem for fish.

I kind of hate to suggest fixes. The problem is you haven't been testing water so no idea what's what. Adding stuff like "water safe", algae control, barley without knowing those things are bad for fish is a red flag, so I'm very afraid if I say add this or that and a bunch of other people say add that or this that it's really going to be bad. These things aren't simple to fix. If it was chlorine the chlorine is now long gone and the gill damage is done. That doesn't really get better. So I think the pie is already baked.

I hate to even say it's time to start thinking about putting the fish down because I'm I'm just reading text.

I think it's best just to let them be and see if they pull through. But this is an excellent time to consider learning more about fish keeping for future issues, future fish.

My best advice for the future is to never ever use these bottled products. They say very misleading things on the front label while the fine print tells you it's toxic to fish. And very few actually work for most ponds because either they're a scam or people don't follow the directions perfectly. That includes barley. Be really, really careful where you get info. Unfortunately there is a lot of bad info. So the safest thing is don't use products less you've read the MSDS and really have a good understanding of what they do to fish and the water. And if you don't then just don't use them. It's not like they do anything useful anyways.

For example, to make sure chlorine is gone use a chlorine test for swimming pools. Yes it means you might have to wait a day, a week before adding fish, but it's way, way safer. Besides that waiting period can improve other things. And the test probably costs less than the "water safe".

I do hope they pull through.
 
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I'm afraid I'm going to lose the other two.

The biggest (the one who seems so frantic) is listing to one side and it's getting worse.

I had dinner with friends (no fish!) and they thought too it was a pH problem. Still strange, because they had more water and much of it was old water from their previous pond where they were healthy. One said the listing fish has ich and will doubtless die. He's too far gone.

I'm going to get a pH tester tomorrow, as well as medicine for ich. Maybe I can save the third fish. He/she seems to be lurking below the surface.
Sorry about your fish, it does not sound very good, I would agree with waterbug's post more then my PH theory.
 
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Still alive this morning and the list doesn't seem as bad. However, he was hiding under a lily pad so I don't know until he starts that swimming in circles (if he does). Will visit the pond store and see about pH and chlorine testers

Thanks for the advice Waterbug,, especially about the bottled products. I do slosh in barley extract and AquaSafe, both by Tetra Pond. I have evaporation, so I have to add some inches of tap water every few days.

Yes, I've worried about the water problem in my part of WV. 300,000 people affected. But my fish thrived all winter, despite adding water and the bottled pond products. I'm still getting bottled water to drink and cook with, but I do bathe in the tap water now.

I just checked them again. The big one does not seem to be listing as bad. Nor gasping. The smaller one is keeping very close to him.
 
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Such good news! I'm hoping they pull through! You should pick up a testing kit, normally they will have four tests in there, one will be PH and the other ammonia and the other two can vary depending on the brand you buy. But those two give you some immediate important answers.

You could also take some water to the pet store and have them test it there, then they can give you some direction on the spot, rather than having to make two trips.
 
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Glad to hear they're still "with you". Please keep us posted, I'm following this situation with interest....always something to learn.

I've been on the fence about using a bottled product for my algae, and reading WB's post, has made me trust my instinct to not use it!
 
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I babied 3 beautiful koi/goldfish (what is the difference between them?) through the first winter with the aid of a deicer and pond feeder adviser. I even paid to have their pond deepened last Saturday. It was only 11" deep and approx. 4' x 6'. Now it is 14" deep, more round and with same depth overall. But strange things have been happening!

First, the most beautiful, an 11" long white fish with orange spots, jumped out of the pond and died before I found it.

The other two act weird. I thought maybe they were agitated because of the one's jumping out. But they circle around the surface of the water with their mouths opening and closing, like they're gasping for oxygen. I have the same filter/pump in the pond as before. Also, they don't seem to be eating. I actually watched one grab some food from the surface, then spit it out slightly below the surface ('PTOOEY!). I even bought another container of food, but I still don't think they're eating and they seem very upset. If one can tell when a gold fish is upset..

Thank you for any guidance on this. I am so upset that THEY'RE upset.
Remember always to read the instructions on any bottle your going to use on your pond as mistakes can and do prove costly to say the very least.
Do you know the exact gallonage of the pond , this itself is also vitally important otherwise and sometimes fatally mistakes can be made in the amounts of chemicals put into the pond that could cause symptoms like you have mentioned.
Always when doing any water change uses a dechlorinator/chloromines as the chloromines are deadly to fish and the chlorine in the water can burn a koi's gills mistakes happen thats why you should buy a book or two to learn some of the more important lessons our hobby has to give you The Imterpet Manuel of Koi Health ISBN 1842860992 by Keith Holmes and Tony Pitham would help you with all these issues and can be bought from Amazon quite cheaply nowadays .
It will teach you most of the lessons you'll need to know .


Dave
 
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Thanks you all, for all the guidance.

I went to a pond specialty shop, Inland Reef, described how we cleaned the pond and how my fish reacted.

I'm not sure I exactly understood, but it seems he said cleaning it thoroughly like we did, even though at least 1/3 of the water we put back was from the old pond, loses some of the good stuff in the bottom that they're used to.

He sold me a bottle of API Quick Start. He estimated my pond has 187 gallons since it's 14" deep and 5' across. Told me to put 18 capfuls in, which I just did.

The fish do seem better, no more frantic swimming on the surface and gasping. Hardly seems to be listing at all. But we'll see. I'm kind of resigned I may lose them.

They will test my water for free at the shop. I just need to put a sample in a plastic bag, let it sit, and bring it in tomorrow for testing.

I'll check on the book, Dave. Thanks. I guess I am woefully ignorant on the subject. I just brought products at Lowe's and WalMart and they seemed to be doing great until this total cleanup and re-sizing of their pond.
 

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