Spawning and Ammonia / Nitrite Spike

[barryian]

@Meyer Jordan ... and anyone else! Just 2 days ago, I check my ammonia, Nitrites, etc and found a .25ppm ammonia and .25ppm nitrite. Also had that familiar odor to the water and have 2 fish loaded with eggs. Uh oh! Looking closely I hadn't seen eggs but later, the fish were in mild pursuit of one of the 2 female koi. I did a water change, used a binder and the next day, bang. There were the eegs and the smell was worse and the ammonia was now .50ppm.

I've been through this before. So, I cleaned things up, did another water change, used a binder and all's well. My problem is that I keep a high pH @ 8.4 .... Baking soda buffer with a high kH. Been doing this for many many years. This makes the ammonia quite toxic at low numbers. There's a 2nd spawning coming soon too. Hoping I'm not away a few days if there is.

Do you have any thoughts on the ammonia level being left alone if someone is not around to tend to it ??? Would the beneficial bacteria eventually bring it back to 0 on it's own? The cleanup, backwashing and water change can always be done later if I wasn't around for a week.

How toxic is the .50ppm ammonia level @ 8.4 pH and how long before it actually took a toll? These are just scenarios that haven't occurred at this point! Thx Makes me wonder about how to carry a lower pH and how to buffer that pH as well as it is buffered now with a 150 - 200 kH maintained all the time. Thanks!

 

[Meyer Jordan]

@Meyer Jordan ... and anyone else! Just 2 days ago, I check my ammonia, Nitrites, etc and found a .25ppm ammonia and .25ppm nitrite. Also had that familiar odor to the water and have 2 fish loaded with eggs. Uh oh! Looking closely I hadn't seen eggs but later, the fish were in mild pursuit of one of the 2 female koi. I did a water change, used a binder and the next day, bang. There were the eegs and the smell was worse and the ammonia was now .50ppm.

I've been through this before. So, I cleaned things up, did another water change, used a binder and all's well. My problem is that I keep a high pH @ 8.4 .... Baking soda buffer with a high kH. Been doing this for many many years. This makes the ammonia quite toxic at low numbers. There's a 2nd spawning coming soon too. Hoping I'm not away a few days if there is.

Do you have any thoughts on the ammonia level being left alone if someone is not around to tend to it ??? Would the beneficial bacteria eventually bring it back to 0 on it's own? The cleanup, backwashing and water change can always be done later if I wasn't around for a week.

How toxic is the .50ppm ammonia level @ 8.4 pH and how long before it actually took a toll? These are just scenarios that haven't occurred at this point! Thx Makes me wonder about how to carry a lower pH and how to buffer that pH as well as it is buffered now with a 150 - 200 kH maintained all the time. Thanks!

First off bookmark this link for future use-
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/koicalcs.php?do=calcnh3c

I would let the KH level to gradually reduce on its own to maybe 100. This should allow some normal diurnal fluctuation of the pH and at the same time gradually reduce the actual pH. This should not harm your fish in any way by letting Nature do it gradually.
A lower pH would certainly moderate any effect that Ammonia may have.
At your present pH, you have a problem condition regardless of temperature.
Allowing the pH to drop to just 7.8 renders a 0.50 Ammonia level safe up to 80F water temperature which I doubt that you ever reach.

 

[barryian]

First off bookmark this link for future use-
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/koicalcs.php?do=calcnh3c

I would let the KH level to gradually reduce on its own to maybe 100. This should allow some normal diurnal fluctuation of the pH and at the same time gradually reduce the actual pH. This should not harm your fish in any way by letting Nature do it gradually.
A lower pH would certainly moderate any effect that Ammonia may have.
At your present pH, you have a problem condition regardless of temperature.
Allowing the pH to drop to just 7.8 renders a 0.50 Ammonia level safe up to 80F water temperature which I doubt that you ever reach.

That's a pretty cool chart! Thank you. So, as high pH and the adverse effect ammonia could play with that pH, how would I lower it naturally. Years back, my pH seemed to go up, not down on it's own, contrary to most. Now, for whatever reason, it appears overtime to go slightly down, very slightly. It could have been that when the pond was rebuilt, the rock, 8-10" below the waterline could have played a part in the higher pH but I never figured it out.

In any event, now, using baking soda to maintain the kH and buffer the pH, 8.4 is a given. If I let the pH
go to 100 which is ok, bead filter might like it higher, what would be my buffering agent? I really don't like crushed oyster shells, been there, did that about 15 years back. My water out of the tap for water changes have a 7.8 to 8.1 pH depending on the week and the kH is about a 3 ( 54 ) ...

Oh, one thing... is it normal for the nitrite to go up to the .25 during the spawning? Never noticed that.
Any thoughts. I'm sure you have a solution ...

 

[Meyer Jordan]

In any event, now, using baking soda to maintain the kH and buffer the pH, 8.4 is a given. If I let the pH
go to 100 which is ok, bead filter might like it higher, what would be my buffering agent? I really don't like crushed oyster shells,

Your present KH will gradually be used up by the action of the bioconversion in your biofilter and the rest of your pond. pH will also gradually decrease for the same reason. A KH of 100 can be maintained using Baking Soda. You will just be using less.

Oh, one thing... is it normal for the nitrite to go up to the .25 during the spawning?

All that shows is your bioconversion is working. The Ammonia produced by spawning has to be reduced like any other Ammonia.

 

[barryian]

Your present KH will gradually be used up by the action of the bioconversion in your biofilter and the rest of your pond. pH will also gradually decrease for the same reason. A KH of 100 can be maintained using Baking Soda. You will just be using less.



All that shows is your bioconversion is working. The Ammonia produced by spawning has to be reduced like any other Ammonia.

Got it! Thanks so much! I'll try dropping it and see where the Ph goes overtime.

 

[barryian]

Got it! Thanks so much! I'll try dropping it and see where the Ph goes overtime.

This is quite hard to make up! I have 3 female Koi. I awoke this morning to another mess. Female # 2 was under a brutal attack with dozens of her scales at the bottom of the pond. I wish the females could be neutered ...lol ... So, ammonia was back to .50ppm, nitrate normal, pH 8.1 ... Water temp 72F ..
Being this was the 2nd spawn in 3 days, I did another water change, added Fritz ammonia remover and this time, I added 10lbs of salt to my 2000 gallons to possible heal the wounds. I added some the other day also but did a water change which reduced it.

The water after the Fritz was added actually shows 0 ppm ammonia within an hour. Some don't show 0 and just bind, this actually tests 0 .... So at this point, I figure my nitrobacter are hammered from three 25% water changes in 4 days.

Are you ready??? I left, went out east for the day and we returned this evening at 10pm. I suspected before I left that the 3rd female possibly looked full of eggs as she was a pretty girthy fish so I wasn't 100% sure. They appeared to be after her but I wasn't sure if it was just all from the previous action of koi #2.
I went back to see if all is normal and she was my 3rd spawn. She wasn't as large in girth as I thought last year or this year. The pond once more has the same stink, eggs galore, ammonia @ .50ppm again. I think I'm more exhausted and stressed than my 3 female friends. Well, I added another 16oz of Fritz to bind this batch of ammonia at 10:30pm tonight ( Saturday ).
Kh is down to 108, pH is 8.1 and I'm in awe.

In the morning, I have to cleanup and do yet another water change. Probably add more binder.
Meyer, do I have any beneficial bacteria left? I backwashed and rinsed so many times over the last 3 days to clean out the eggs and bubbling sperm.

Once again, I have to do this in the morning. It's 11:30pm and I'll be packing it in shortly.
In 24 years, I've never seen this. Are the nitrobacter and nitrosomonas shot. Would you spend the money to add Fritz-Zyme TurboStart 700? The salt level now is 1.4ppm of which will go down via another water change. I don't plan to add more salt as I realize I didn't have to in the first place. I thought in this rare case that it might be beneficial.

Can you please comment again as this seems to be an unusual scenario. Much Thanks and greatly appreciated.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

This is quite hard to make up! I have 3 female Koi. I awoke this morning to another mess. Female # 2 was under a brutal attack with dozens of her scales at the bottom of the pond. I wish the females could be neutered ...lol ... So, ammonia was back to .50ppm, nitrate normal, pH 8.1 ... Water temp 72F ..
Being this was the 2nd spawn in 3 days, I did another water change, added Fritz ammonia remover and this time, I added 10lbs of salt to my 2000 gallons to possible heal the wounds. I added some the other day also but did a water change which reduced it.

The water after the Fritz was added actually shows 0 ppm ammonia within an hour. Some don't show 0 and just bind, this actually tests 0 .... So at this point, I figure my nitrobacter are hammered from three 25% water changes in 4 days.

Are you ready??? I left, went out east for the day and we returned this evening at 10pm. I suspected before I left that the 3rd female possibly looked full of eggs as she was a pretty girthy fish so I wasn't 100% sure. They appeared to be after her but I wasn't sure if it was just all from the previous action of koi #2.
I went back to see if all is normal and she was my 3rd spawn. She wasn't as large in girth as I thought last year or this year. The pond once more has the same stink, eggs galore, ammonia @ .50ppm again. I think I'm more exhausted and stressed than my 3 female friends. Well, I added another 16oz of Fritz to bind this batch of ammonia at 10:30pm tonight ( Saturday ).
Kh is down to 108, pH is 8.1 and I'm in awe.

In the morning, I have to cleanup and do yet another water change. Probably add more binder.
Meyer, do I have any beneficial bacteria left? I backwashed and rinsed so many times over the last 3 days to clean out the eggs and bubbling sperm.

Once again, I have to do this in the morning. It's 11:30pm and I'll be packing it in shortly.
In 24 years, I've never seen this. Are the nitrobacter and nitrosomonas shot. Would you spend the money to add Fritz-Zyme TurboStart 700? The salt level now is 1.4ppm of which will go down via another water change. I don't plan to add more salt as I realize I didn't have to in the first place. I thought in this rare case that it might be beneficial.

Can you please comment again as this seems to be an unusual scenario. Much Thanks and greatly appreciated.

Hey, Pondkeeping is fun! Especially when one has big horny fish!!
Seriously, your bioconversion should not really be affected that much. Biofilm of any composition is hard to destroy, plus you still have what is on all of submerged surfaces.
From here until things get back to normal I would just suggest monitoring things. Visual inspection should be enough, but if you feel compelled continue testing.
KH does not need to be extremely high to stabilize pH. Remember, some fluctuation is normal.

 

[barryian]

Hey, Pondkeeping is fun! Especially when one has big horny fish!!
Seriously, your bioconversion should not really be affected that much. Biofilm of any composition is hard to destroy, plus you still have what is on all of submerged surfaces.
From here until things get back to normal I would just suggest monitoring things. Visual inspection should be enough, but if you feel compelled continue testing.
KH does not need to be extremely high to stabilize pH. Remember, some fluctuation is normal.

The biofilm is probably all I have left! It has been fun but never have I been hit with 3 strikes! Well, morning water change and monitoring.

Is there anyway to maintain a high Kh (150 ) with a lower pH of say 7.8 ? 100 seems borderline as mine gets used up fairly quickly. I know most with bio-filters like evan a 200 can this be accomplished without baking soda and an 8.4 pH?

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Is there anyway to maintain a high Kh (150 ) with a lower pH of say 7.8 ? 100 seems borderline as mine gets used up fairly quickly. I know most with bio-filters like evan a 200 can this be accomplished without baking soda and an 8.4 pH?

Not that I am aware of. All of the ponds that I have maintained (including my own) over the years usually had stable pH levels of 7.4 - 8.0 and the KH was always between 50 - 100. All without the addition of anything.
I did put oyster shells in one customer's pond because they insisted on it, but after 4 years I never saw any difference or change in KH or stability or any reduction in the oyster shells.
All of these ponds were eco-ponds. That may be the difference.

 

[addy1]

Not that I am aware of. All of the ponds that I have maintained (including my own) over the years usually had stable pH levels of 7.4 - 8.0 and the KH was always between 50 - 100. All without the addition of anything.
I did put oyster shells in one customer's pond because they insisted on it, but after 4 years I never saw any difference or change in KH or stability or any reduction in the oyster shells..

They work for me, I put them in the bog where I have constant water flow. I have to replace them every year ow they do disappear. My pond read nothing on hardness with a ph of around 5.6 when I first filled it. Killed off my first fish before I realized it.

 

[barryian]

Well, just did my morning water change. Once again, my pH was 8.1, kH was only 5 from water changes which I'll raise and ammonia was .50ppm. That is with adding a binder last night at 10pm.

So I tested my tap going into the pond and much to my surprise, the pH is now running at 8.5 and kH is 3, quite low. That makes it quite difficult to have my pH drop naturally as with my bead filter, the kH seems to drop rapidly and needs baking soda to replenish. Is there a fairly constant pH/kH to oyster shells? Otherwise I'm back to a maintaining kH with baking soda of 8.4 pH to keep the kH up. Now after all these years changing this system if I can might be difficult.

Sound like who's on first and what's on 2nd or is what on 3rd and he's on 2nd!

 

[barryian]

@Meyer Jordan ... Meyer - All is almost copacetic at this point. The chart works excellent. So in my case with the understanding after 3 spawns, I don't have an ammonia problem, but a problem with 3 females ( don't tell my wife ). Point in case ... for whatever reason, my pH is now at 7.8, ironic as you mentioned 7.8 ... This would mean with .50ppm ammonia at 70F with 7.8pH, the free ammonia is only .013ppm? This renders it near harmless, but what would be considered an extended period of time? I binded it again in hopes, the BB with start to take over since all is finally well and good.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

View attachment 91612 @Meyer Jordan ... Meyer - All is almost copacetic at this point. The chart works excellent. So in my case with the understanding after 3 spawns, I don't have an ammonia problem, but a problem with 3 females ( don't tell my wife ). Point in case ... for whatever reason, my pH is now at 7.8, ironic as you mentioned 7.8 ... This would mean with .50ppm ammonia at 70F with 7.8pH, the free ammonia is only .013ppm? This renders it near harmless, but what would be considered an extended period of time? I binded it again in hopes, the BB with start to take over since all is finally well and good.

As long as the Free Ammonia level is below 0.020, there will not be a problem regardless of length of time.

 

[barryian]

As long as the Free Ammonia level is below 0.020, there will not be a problem regardless of length of time.

@Meyer Jordan ... Hi Meyer ... some eye surgery all fixed so been a non reader for a while. Ever since the 4 water changes and the backwashing the spawning soapsuds out of my bio-filter, my ammonia took all this time binding it and finally, we have a 0. What I did notice was my nitrites were going to .25 making me think it was just the same thing. The nitrosomonas had to get back on track. I added some salt for safety. All is well, fish never were scathed as I kept on top of it.

So, I do not want to do any water change to bring the nitrite down, the salt rendered that small reading harmless but, without a water water change, will I see the nitrite hit 0 on it's own? Thx ...

 

[Meyer Jordan]

@Meyer Jordan ... Hi Meyer ... some eye surgery all fixed so been a non reader for a while. Ever since the 4 water changes and the backwashing the spawning soapsuds out of my bio-filter, my ammonia took all this time binding it and finally, we have a 0. What I did notice was my nitrites were going to .25 making me think it was just the same thing. The nitrosomonas had to get back on track. I added some salt for safety. All is well, fish never were scathed as I kept on top of it.

So, I do not want to do any water change to bring the nitrite down, the salt rendered that small reading harmless but, without a water water change, will I see the nitrite hit 0 on it's own? Thx ...

You certainly should.
Refresh my memory. What is your biofiltration size? Type of media?