Sick Shubunkin

[pebcpa]

Hi All,
I discover one of my Shubunkin with an ulcer on the side. At first I thought it was a predator attack. Now I'm not sure. It may be some kind of disease or fungus that caused it. I removed the fish from the pond and have it in a quarantine tank. I increased the salt a bit and put in a dose of MicroLift wound care and a dose of fungus treatment. Here are some photo's. Anyone have ideas on what this is or suggestions on what to do?
Thanks for your help,
PEB

 

[koikeepr]

yikes! that looks fairly bad. I would say it looks like a straight forward ulcer and not necessarily an attack of any kind.

What is your ammonia reading? It could be ammonia burn or a parasite...but not sure until you give us all your water readings. I would start off by doing a 50% water change in your pond. What was the last water change you did? Typically, ulcers like that are caused by water quality that is not really up to par.

Separate the fish and put it into a hospital tank....then...

Go to the local drug store and buy a bottle of iodine quickly. First rub the spot with peroxide well with a thick cotton ball. If you see the ulcer bubbling, that's how you know you've done it right. Next, take your iodine and rub it onto this fish really well. It will stain the fish for a while, but I wouldn't worry about that as it will go away. Do this for 3 -5 days as iodine.

Normally, I would just say to treat your water with the appropriate salt amount next, but this ulcer is pretty bad and I would go another step. Malachite Green is an antiseptic that will help furthering of the ulcer ir bacteria getting the fish and doing worse damage. A very cheap product called QuICK Cure (any fish shop) has mala green in it and would be very helpful in your situation. Beware that malachite green is super staining (like iodine is), so you want to use it exactly the way the directions advise. You need to know how many gallons of water are in your hospital tank/pond you have so you can use the right amount. I like to use it in a hospital tank rather than using it on the whole pond, but if you don't have a hospital tank, then you have to take action.

Instead of the iodine, use quick cure for 3 days as the bottle instructs. On the 4th day, do a 50% water change, and then add the proper amount of salt to help the fish develop a strong slime coat to fight infections. Don't use the salt and the malachite at the same time. Let the malachite work on its own first, then salt.

If you choose not to treat the water, you can also paint a dab of mala green onto your fish for 5 days, but it's not the better treatment.

Oh, and if possible, when using mala green in a hospital tank don't use any tank lighting and let the fish rest in the darker setting. With a wound of that size, I would do the malachite green cure, but you can do the iodine one alone if that's what you prefer.

I hope your fish survives. Let us know what happens. Keep up with your partial water changes weekly!

 

[koikeepr]

Unfortunately, if Peb isn't 100% sure what is affecting the fish, I always lean toward the worst case scenario and try to cover all the bases for that. Because if it is an ulcer and the water quality is affecting the poor fish, then s/he risks this happening to other fish.

Now, if Peb says, I have a net over the pond, for example, then it is unlikely a predator. Or if Peb says, I saw the heron near my pond. Perhaps that might change things. It could be parasites, it could be ammonia burn, it could be a predator. Which do you treat for? If I'm unsure, I go for broad sprectrum to try to cover as many bases as I can. When possible, I try to do this in a hospital tank...and watch the other fish like a hawk.

Nonetheless, If s/he wants to do only one thing, I would at least do a salt dip for the poor fish (sounds like the fish is already in a salt solution). But I wouldn't start anything without knowing those water parameters. Ammonia/Nitriates/Nitrites/etc. first. There could be some valuable info in those numbers.

Peb, can you tell us how long you've been using the salt/Microlift/Fungus treatment? Have you noticed any effect from what you've done so far? Also, what can you tell us about partial water changes in your pond? Any word on those water test figures?

I don't think it's a fungus, personally.

 

[pebcpa]

Thanks koikeeper.
The numbers on the pond before I took the sick one out were Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, ph 7.5 and the salinity is about .14%. I put the fish in a 29 gallon aquarium tank last Friday and increased the salt to .3%. I did a partial water change (20%) on the tank on Sunday (so the salinity is now slightly lower) and put in a dose of Microbe-Lift Wound Care. Yesterday put in a dose of Microbe-Lift Fungus treatment. The wound kind of looked the same this morning but the fish seemed a bit more active. I have 2 feeder fish in there with him to monitor their behavior since they've been in that tank for a couple of weeks.

The pond was not covered with a net and I did lose a couple of fish last month (see my "disappearing fish" post). I put 2 small butterfly koi in the pond immediately before I removed the sick one since they were recently acquired and were in the quarantine tank. They disappeared by Saturday, not sure what got them, could be the GBH??? The other fish in the pond seem to be fine.

I picked up the iodine and the peroxide you mentioned but haven't used it yet. I think I'll go to PetCo or PetSmart to try and get the Quick cure.

 

[koikeepr]

ok. so an attack on this fish is likely. You need to get a net over your pond asap. No sense in paying good money for fish and then providing a sushi buffet to the predators in your yard.

Just don't try a bunch of things at once....let one thing work for awhile. Pick one thing and stick with it for 3-5 days. The fish hasn't gotten worse, so that's a huge positive and will hopefully mean he will recover. You've done the salt since Friday, so that's great. Micro-lift is good stuff too. I have pond buddies who swear by it.

If u use quick cure, remove any carbon from the water/filter. Get an accurate read of how much water you have in the tank and then put the proper dosage in. The water will turn bright blue, which lasts for a few days. It goes away after a while. As I said, its highly staining, so don't drop it anywhere. Just follow the instructions on the bottle. I personally try to avoid bottled meds as much as I can and use salt whenever possible, but QuICK cure is a wonderful remedy for all sorts of body infections/fungus/parasites/etc. I've been amazed by how it has cured stuff on fish within a short period of time. It does need to be used properly and at the right dosage.

Save that peroxide and iodine, as they are the beginnings of a fish first aid kit for you.

if you can take a measurement of the wound, it will help you tell if it's closing/getting smaller. If you have the capacity to keep the fish in the tank until the hole is fully closed the fish will be better off. There's lots of bacteria in ponds, and a fish with an open wound like that will have a harder time fending off that stuff and you could get a secondary infection. Take note that the wound may leave a mark in that spot, and other times it heals as if it was never there.

After 3 days of dosing with the Quick Cure, I would keep the fish on the salt mix so that it builds up a good slime coat. You will find it in very large bottles, but they also sell it in small bottles for like $3...it's pretty cheap stuff in comparison to some of the crazy priced meds you see out there.

I look forward to hearing how your fish does. Sounds like he's on a positive track...

 

[DrDave]

I always do a 2% salt dip for no more than 10 minutes first whenever I see an open wound. It kills parasites and helps clean wounds. Then you can go on to whatever the recommended treatment is for the injured or infected Koi.

 

[nc0gnet0]

I don't claim to know as much as either of two above me but I did alot of research when I had sick fish. First a note on quick cure......good stuff but it contains a mixture of formalin and malachite green. Formalin should not be used with salt so make sure you lower your salt level before using it. Also, formalin will lower oxygen levels somewhat so be sure to have additional oxygen in the tank.

Fungal infections in Koi are almost always secondary to a parasite or a wound.

 

[Ian]

I've moved this thread to the illness section, as it will be a good first thread to kick it off with

 

[pebcpa]

Petco didn't have the QuickCure but I did a 50% water change in the tank last night and added Microbe-Lift Quarentine salt as directed and gave another dose of both the Microb-Lift wound heal and the fungus treatment. The oxygen should be fine, I have a 14" stone bubbler in there too. I am having trouble keeping the nitrite level down, that's one reason I did the water change.

The amonia level was ok, probably because I had a charcoal bubbler in there until I gave the first dose of fungus treatment. The instructions said to take the charcoal out so now I'm expecting that level to go up also.

I think I need to make a mini skippy filter for the tank. Not sure how to do it with a regular aquarium tank. I also have a 55 gallon tank without a good filter that I would like to make a mini skippy filter for. But that's a topic for another thread.

The Shubie seems the same. Can't tell if the wound is healing. He's still eating the flake food twice a day but doesn't seem intersted in the pellets.

BTW, thanks for all your replies.

 

[DrDave]

Be advised, that at some point DrCase and I will be removing all non value added posts in the "IIlness and Disease Threads" only, this includes our own.

The Illness and Disease section was created to be an information source that will have only those posts that will help someone quickly. In order to do this, the posts must be factual, informative and related to the illness that was originally posted.

Most people when they come here for help, do not have time to read through all the posts to find out how to save their fish.

This is one of 2 new features we are working on for the Forum. Please be patient and understanding if you see a post removed or possibly even edited.

So, when you post here, the information should be known cures, positive ID of suspected diseases, past experience that worked. Opinions are not suitable here and should be kept to other threads.

I hope I explained the intent well enough, this thread is for the benefit of those who are in need of emergency help, not a place for discussion.

I hope that in time it will become like a Medical Encyclopedia for illness and cures.

 

[pebcpa]

Last night I did a 75% water change in the 29 gal quarantine tank. I added the 2 Microbe-lift meds again and a lower dose of the Microbe quarantine tank salt. The Shubie looks MUCH better today. Seems more active and the wound looks like it's starting to close. We'll see...

 

[koikeepr]

that's great to hear! That's the beauty of a hospital tank--so much easier/quicker to heal because you don't have to deal with the parasites/bacteria that normally exist in a pond and can cause secondary issues in a fish with a wound like that.

Plus, it's always better to treat one single fish than a whole pond if you have a wounded fish.

Nice peb! Keep us posted. Keep her in there until the whole thing heals if you can. Once you start seeing it turn white-ish, that's when you know it's healing for sure.

 

[pebcpa]

:banghead3: Well, we were a little too quick for the optimism. I did another water change and added the appropriate doses of the meds and salt this afternoon and the Shubie looked prettty good. About 3 hours later I found him floating around the tank. Oh well, I tried. At least I didn't pay big bucks for him. I probably spent more trying to save him than I did when I bought him. Thanks for your help koikeepr.

 

[DrDave]

Sometimes there is nothing we can do. Crib deaths and natural causes are a fact of life.
Sorry for your loss.

 

[koikeepr]

I'm sorry to hear this. It was a very large wound, and when you have something that big the chances of losing the fish are great.

If you had a chance to do it all over again, would you have changed anything you did to try to help him?