SETTLING TANK, INLINE?

[Catfishnut]

Flat or sloped bottom doesn't have very much to do with collecting most debris. Most people do seem to think gravity is an important force in ponds but buoyancy is the real force. Water movement pushes debris to drains, not gravity. Even in a vortex filter, with a bottom more than 45 degrees debris will still settle on the sloped floor and stay there without water movement.

Obviously, the dissolved and suspended fines that are in the water are not going to settle to the bottom of my tank pond when there is a high volume of fairly fast water flow (at this point, I am referring to the actual tank pond where the fish are and not the sediment or settling filter). The problem that I see with my rectangular sided and flat bottomed tank pond is that it will require me to do some trial and error engineering with the positioning of the water jets in order to direct the heavy solids (those that will sink) towards the drain of my pond tank. With a typical pond construction using a liner, I can see that this might be quite less of a challenge, not because of gravity, but because of the geometry of the pond. The geometry of a more natural pond's bottom coupled with water flow, could more effectively direct the heavier solids to the drain outlet which could be used to purge the sediments out.

Like swirling water around in a funnel. If the slowest water velocity is where the funnel outlet is, that is where the majority of the solids will accumulate. If a person can engineer a pond (or something like my tank pond) to assist in this function, that would be beneficial.

If I can direct the heavier solids to the drain quickly enough so that they don't have too much time to break down naturally in my tank pond, then that would work to my favor for keeping my tank pond cleaner overall, but I do understand that it isn't going to be a 100% system and the really fine suspended stuff is going to have to be contended with other ways and treated as a separate issue, maybe even ignored.

The drain outlet of my tank pond will be open at all times, as opposed to being just a valve controlled purge outlet. That makes my tank pond design different. You recently posted a diagram where the purge valve was located near the lowest point in the pond, but the recirculation of the water was accomplished a bit above this level. Thus using the very bottom of the pond as the settling field for the larger, heavier solids. Such a design makes for a really great strategy for pond cleaning. Unfortunately, that is not something that I can personally do with the tank pond that I have. There are several issues that I must contend with due to the fact that I have what I have and need to make it work to the best of my ability.
I wanted to address that particular point as it does play a role in how I must design my circulation system within my tank pond. In certain respects, I cannot do what ponders can do, my existing components don't allow me to be quite as flexible in my design.

There's the same problem with suspended particles, most people seem to think they'll settle if this or that is done. Suspended particles are exactly like dust in air. Particles in water are heavier than dust but buoyancy cancels that weight. They are basically weightless. In perfectly still water, enclosed in darkness to reduce thermal currents, it can still take a long time for these particles to fall to the bottom.

I fully understand this, Waterbug. From my own personal experience and observations, I know this to be true. However, I am not too concerned about the very minute particles and expressly not those particles which are down in the micron size range. They are not going to interfere with my plans if they are not trapped and expelled. For my filtration system I mean to infer settling of larger particles, those which you can easily see and measure with the naked eye, not particles which are so minute that you cannot detect them unless there are in huge concentrations and cause the water to be cloudy. As I mentioned, those minute suspended particles will be treated in a different matter entirely and may be of very small significance to me overall.

Sieve filter screens do have to be kept in the dark to prevent algae growth. People using them talk about bio film growth being an issue. Seems to be related to the mesh size, smaller closes faster. So they do need to be cleaned every 20 to 40 day range it seems. So people have designed the screen on a rotating belt so when the screen clogs water is diverted causing the belt to rotate. Pretty complex. The simpler method is to place a lawn sprinkler head under the screen and have it go off for a minute or two every couple of days. That seems to reduce for cleaning.

I could quickly foresee problematic issues with cleaning and keeping such a sieve filter open and operational with the design that was depicted in the video that you provided the link to. I saw that right off when I first viewed that video maybe a month ago or so. I have got the idea rolling around in my head and trying to think of a way to improve upon it, but with such a fine mesh that's going to prove to be a difficult enterprise. Unless you like doing a lot of maintenance, I think that just an inline filter would be better. Something that you would have to clean or replace often, but more easy to access for cleaning or replacement. Either that or nothing at all.

To wrap my post up, I do feel that using the bottom, lowest point in the pond as part of (or the bulk of) the sediment settling function is the best idea for a typical pond with a liner. Using some strategically placed and directed water inlets and circulation ports, you could direct a lot of the sediments to that point in the pond and then expell them right out the drain there by opening the valve occasionally. The outflow of the water near that drain port would naturally take the accumulated sediments and debris right on out with it. Extremely simple and maintenance friendly in design and quite effective.

Then, all you need as a settling tank or prefilter prior to the bio-converter can be simplified greatly. Even just a pump prefilter and an inline sediment filter might be all that is required.

My personal objective for my own system is to create something that is nearly maintenance free. What maintenance is necessary, I desire to be highly simplistic and expedient. But, it does have to be effective. I am sure that Mmathis is desiring the same end results for the turtle habitat.
That is the basis for the subject of this thread and I am hoping that we have all provided a lot of valuable information and ideas for you, Mmathis.

Mmathis, nice avatar! Your boxer appears to be thinking... "You lookin' at me?"

Gordy

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Great! thread guys. The best discussion I have read in pond forum in a long time. Thanks.

In my new pond I installed a bottom drain and 100 gal cone bottom vortex settling chamber and have yet to see just how effective it will be in the long run. In the short term I think I could say it has been 100% effective because in the limited time I had my pond running it managed to filter out all 3 leaves that sank to the bottom of my pond before I shut things down for the winter. LOL Of course this is hardly a hard core test, but I’m pretty confident that it will continue to do what I designed it to do, and that is to automatically keep vacuuming up much of the sludge and debris (mainly plant mater) that accumulates at the deepest part of my sloping pond bottom. Once in the vortex tank the sludge can be cleaned up and dealt with more effectively than in the pond.
I don’t believe the vortex tank will be very effective at filtering out much fish or turtle poop or food wastes because that stuff tends to break down and dissolve fairly rapidly. Once dissolved it is really the job of the mechanical filter to catch any of the remaining fine suspended particles, and the bio-filter to convert the rest to nitrates that are either absorbed by plants or eliminated through water changes.
I think the hardest thing to filter out of pond water is the suspended particles, which are really the equivalent of airborne dust. To do that you really need a fine enough mechanical filter that can capture those fine particles, and the biggest problem with that is any filter medium that fine will also capture larger particles and end up getting plugged up quite quickly unless you have very large surface area of the filter media, or some automatic way of removing the particles from the filter media. The other way is to manually clean or change the filter frequently. This last method is what I plan to use in my new pond, I will have a removable fine filter pad that I will install after the larger mechanical filters. I will install it periodically for just long enough to catch the suspended (dust like) particles in the pond water, and remove it when it either, start to get plugged, or I feel the water has been cleaned up enough. Leaving it in place for extended periods of time is not a good option because it would eventually plug up and restrict the water flow which would cause other problems while I’m not around to do anything about it.

The thing about fish poop: The most harmful component of fish (or turtle) poop is the ammonia, the rest is basically undigested bits of organic mater. Most of the ammonia in the fish poop will dissolve in the water very quickly after the fish (or turtle) has done his thing. So even if you had some super effective way of filtering out the fish (or turtle) poop solids you'll still be left with the majority of the ammonia in the water, which is why effective bio-filters are so important for keeping a fish environments healthy.
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Quote “My opinions should never be taken as fact, I don't think of them fact, just what I believe today.” +1

 

[Catfishnut]

Mucky,

Hello from Nebraska, USA!

I am glad that you are enjoying this thread. I personally have taken a great deal of information home myself by hashing the details around with everyone, especially from Waterbug. This forum is probably one of the most valuable resources to me, personally. Not only is it a great place to chit-chat about everyday pond and nature items just to be social, but there is a huge amount of excellent technical and DIY ideas and information "floating around in this pond". I have learned a great deal in just the short time that I have been visiting this forum.

The name of the forum does not reflect the diversity of the information found here. There are folks here doing Garden Ponds, Koi Ponds, Goldfish Ponds, Turtle Habitats and various combinations of them all and others! And also me with my Bullhead Bait Tank Pond!

Everyone has so much wisdom, experience and ideas and suggestions to offer and discuss here that it just fascinates me and makes me interested in much more than just my own little niche. I am not satisfied with just my own ideas, there is simply too much more available out there to learn. Threads like this one get many folks involved and putting in their perspectives and knowledge and that all goes a long way. It opens the table up to many new ideas and discussions which are beneficial, informative and even eye-opening. What else can I say, it is fun!


Gordy

 

[Waterbug]

Ammonia isn't actually present in feces, or urine for that matter, at least in any great amount. Urine contains urea which is converted slowly in water to ammonia. If anyone has had the pleasure of being in the company of a toilet with urine for a few days the ammonia produced can be overwhelming.

In the case of feces it takes microbial action to produce ammonia...I can't resist...If anyone has had the pleasure of shoveling out a cow barn or chicken coop will attest. So there is a window for getting feces out of a pond before it becomes a problem. It's a small window as decomposition starts right away.

 

[Waterbug]

I hadn't really noticed this, but this thread got me thinking, and Mucky mentioning a vortex...I haven't really heard much in the past few years about settling chambers or even vortex filters. 20 years ago they were state of the art, leading edge stuff, everyone was talking about and building. After that bead filters were the rage and touted as combo filters, replacing settling tank and bio filter. More and more now I see bead filters being used solely for removing fine particles (not feces). The bead filter owners do say they provide some bio filtering but that's not their reason for use, it's just for "polishing water". The apex of Koi ponds would have a sieve filter, a bead filter and a fluidized bed (moving bed).

But Water Gardening doesn't seem to move forward as fast, or really much at all. Techniques used 20 years ago still seem to be in vogue today. Just an observation.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Ammonia isn't actually present in feces, or urine for that matter, at least in any great amount. Urine contains urea which is converted slowly in water to ammonia.

Yes waterbug, you are so right, I should have said urea instead of ammonia, and that it breaks down to ammonia. Thanks for the correction
My point was that it does breakdown in water to ammonia and can be filtered by the bio-filter.
I always thought that it happened rather quickly, rather than slowly. In a pond you don't really notice fish poop much, but in a well lit aquarium it is easy to see any accumulation. When I use to keep aquariums I always marvelled had how quickly it would simply dissolve away to nothing, and if trying to scoop it out with a net it would breakdown even faster, like trying to net a cigarette ash off the bottom of the tank. It always seemed to me it made more sense to allow it to dissolve completely and just allow the resultant ammonia to handle by the bio-filter rather than trying to mechanically filter it out.
But I guess if you have a super heavy fish load it might be worth the trouble, but from my understanding, fish excrete more ammonia through their gills then from what is converted from there feces. But maybe you’ll correct me on that too. lol

As far as vortex filters being in or out of vogue, that didn’t play into it much for me. My choice was based on simplicity of design and cost, and the fact that I knew I wanted a bottom drain in my new pond.I don’t know much about bead filters, but I have seen and worked around various versions of sieve filters in other applications so they are not exactly new technology, but perhaps their application as pond filters is
.
What sort of filter system do you plan for your new pond?

 

[Waterbug]

Urea conversion to ammonia is a continuous process, but I'd say most of it is done within 2 days, maybe even one day, just based on my toilet experience from my bachelor days. The "slowly" reference is that it isn't an instant chemical reaction when urea hits water. For ponds I consider it fast, but I can't get urea out before conversion so it doesn't matter much.

but from my understanding, fish excrete more ammonia through their gills then from what is converted from there feces. But maybe you’ll correct me on that too. lol

Yes, that is what I've read most often. And for ponds it's close enough. But as Cliff Clavin and I would have to point out, it's urea that is expelled from the gills. Humans also excrete urea though the lungs and sweat. I don't get invited to many dinner parties.

I think you're dead on...in aquariums feces are a big deal, some fish farms, and Koi ponds. Some Koi pond owners toss more food into their pond in one month than I've ever used. Plus Koi nuggets are a lot larger and easier to remove than most Goldfish. For most Water Gardens I don't think feces is even a minor problem despite what many would say. I often hear about the dangers of muck, but by that time the feces are long since gone. In Wildlife ponds fish feces is an important asset. When I was growing up it was common to put a lot of horse manure into a new mud pond to kick start the food chain.

vogue

By vogue I just mean talked about a lot, not that they don't function. I think the term "sieve filter" comes from mining first, but has also been used in sewage treatment. So yeah, been around for a really long time. Kind of amazing it took so long for pond keeper to pick up on it, such a simple system. Proves my personal axiom that people new to hobbies always choose the most complex, most expensive and least functional methods first.

What sort of filter system do you plan for your new pond?

I've been having a hard time getting excited about another pond. Partly it's from living in AZ. Partly is I kind of already done it enough it isn't as interesting any more. So I'm trying to find something a little off the beaten path. One idea was to raise freshwater shrimp. But getting stock seems to be a pain. Next choice is raising tilapia. That would mean I'd need serious filtering.

I'm also thinking of growing large Goldfish, as in as large as possible. I think that would be fun and I've never heard of anyone doing that, although I'm sure there are. There's a relatively small group doing it with Koi, but I've always liked Goldfish better than Koi. So that would require serious filtering also.

In both cases I could take advantage of the AZ climate and maybe solar heat water in the winter. Maybe 2 ponds, one for Goldfish and another for tilapia. In both cases the ponds would have to be fairly small due to my lot size and volume of water to heat. So that adds to the filter needs. For sure it'll all be DIY, that's the fun part.

 

[Catfishnut]

I am not sure if this is correct, but I believe that this is probably true. Fish respirate more often (and continuously) then they excrement, just like people or other animals do. Therefore, more urea from the fish's respiration would be present in the water than from their other waste products.

However, the urea and other compounds from respiration would be much easier to take up into a bio-filter, because it is immediately mixed with the pond water. Whereas the solid wastes (and uneaten food) may remain at the bottom and trapped in corners, cracks and by any vegetation or other structures. It takes longer for the solids to break down and be carried out of the pond with the water flow.

So, I am thinking that, dependant upon the pond's bio-load and the physical structure of the pond, the build-up of solid wastes (and uneaten food) could be just as troublesome. That isn't just the urea/ammonia that I am thinking of here, though. I think that there are other compounds and bacteria to boot that might be of consideration.

When I keep my bullheads in high numbers in my horse tank, it is amazing how much solid waste builds up at the bottom in not too long of a time if the water is not cycled and removed/filtered. I can imagine what the bottom of a pond might be like with a lot of fish and without a good structural design, drain or removal process to remove these solids.

Of course, once the solids have been broken down naturally, there isn't much left of them and the toxins can be carried out with the filtration water to be converted and cleaned. But, what I figure is, they are constantly being replenished by the fish and by the owner (through overfeeding).

Speaking of feeding... I don't feed my fish like normal pond owners do. Only very rarely if I do. What I do is hang lights over the top of my tank at night to attract bugs. Junebugs, mayflies, moths, etc. Many of them land in the water and the fish devour them right away. I have seen them jump out of the water to catch a flying insect just above the water line. That's pretty cool to watch! When I do actually feed them, they get live food (like minnows).

I can certainly identify with Mucky's comments on the solid wastes in an aquarium. You can see what is going on in there day by day. And again, not so with a pond. Well, I will be able to see that with my pond. It will have a white interior (until and unless it turns green with algae).

Well, I didn't have any revelations or new ideas about how to contend with the issue, I was just reading your responses and making comments in my head as I went along.

Gordy

 

[Waterbug]

Yeah, food in, poop out. A teaspoon of food in a 5,000 gal Water Garden a couple of times a week vs 2 pounds of food in a 5,000 gal Koi pond everyday....a whole other deal. I think Water Gardeners overlook the role of algae in their ponds too. Ammonia is taken in directly by algae and generally Water Gardens have maybe 100 times the amount of algae than a high end Koi pond. Algae does far more than higher plants in removing nitrogen and ammonia in most ponds imo.

Toxins is a hot button term for me, it gets used A LOT in Water Garden forums. There are lots of toxins in ponds, like copper. For example, it's likely there's copper in the water used to fill a pond, regular tap water has copper as well as arsenic and many other toxins. The issue is levels.

High fish load deals I'd say the concerns with feces in order of importance is:

1. Ammonia
2. Consumed O2 by decomposition.
3. Water clarity.
4. Harbor virus and parasites.

Toxins I don't think would make the list because levels are so low that even a water change once every couple of years would take care of those.

Keeping up O2 is really important for maximum growth. So important that in hot climates like Malaysia they put water through chillers to reduce water temp to increase O2. That's in addition to waterfalls, air pumps and cavitation systems. The chillers can cost $1000 per month to run. So the concept of allowing a single bacteria to use one molecule of O2 to eat poop is not acceptable. Different world.

I think when scaling their technologies to Water Gardens there's something lost in translation and myths are born. And all the technologies used in Water Gardens did come from high end Koi keepers.

 

[Catfishnut]

I think I used the term "toxins" a little too broadly here. I was thinking more along the lines of other organics that could possibly harm fish and especially pathogens or bacteria/parasites/worms/nemotodes, etc. I wasn't thinking along the lines of heavy metals or inorganic chemical compounds.

As for getting rid of fish "poop", I recall a catfishfarm near here from years ago. The guy had it made in the shade! My Dad was the superintendant of the power plant here then.

The power plant used city water to cool the boilers, the used water was expelled and went down a ditch and into the river. Back then, this practice was acceptable (it was non-polluting as the water was just clean tap water), but the EPA came up with the regulation that you could not discharge water that was that warm into a natural water body because it could alter the natural order of things. So they had to construct a cooling tower and recycle the boiling cooling water. That shut the fish farm down.

Anyway, before that regulation came along, the fish-farm guy asked permission to route the expelled cooling water through his fish farm before going into the ditch. This was great as he had constant temperature warm water all year around. My Dad being the superintendant, allowed him to do this, at his own expense of course.

Well, that has nothing to do with the whole poop of the story, but it sets it up for the discussion to come.

My Dad was interested in the fish-farm and chatted with the guy a lot. What he was doing to help keep the fish farm water clean of fish poo was to add another variety of fish in with the catfish. I am not sure that my Dad got the fish name correct, but he called it a "Saint Peter's Fish". It would eat all the uneaten catfishfood as well as all the catfish poo from the bottom of the fish farm waters. Well, of course, these fish poop, too. But they do an excellent job of cleaning up the water and put less out in return. He ran the fish farm this way for many years, so it must have worked acceptably.

I had totally forgotten about this until just last night. This might just not be a bad idea. Especially for me.

Gordy

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Gordy
I use to enjoy eating Tilapia until I watched the show Dirty Jobs once where Mike Rowe was cleaning up the poop in some fish ponds after they harvested the fish. I can't remember for sure what the main fish was, (I think it was catfish), but the fish farm also grew Tilapia as a secondary fish because they ate the poop of the main fish. At the end of the show Mike Rowe ate one of the freshly cooked Tilapia to add to the "drama" of the show and show that they were alright to eat. Anyway, I can't eat Tilapia anymore without thinking about that show and wondering if the Tilapia I'm eating came from one of those farms.

 

[Catfishnut]

LOL, Mucky, it's a Dirty Job! But someone IS gong to eat those fish! Ha Ha

When I looked up the St. Peters Fish on Google, it kept taking me to Talapia. So, ok... Talapia are a bottom feeder fish that eats catfish poop!
I don't think that that changes their flesh any for eating, That is what a lot of folks think about channel catfish, but it isn't true (channel catfish are not bottom feeders). Channel catfish are "opportunistic" feeders. Meaning that, if they are hungry they will eat what they can to survive. But, they are predominately "predatory" fish, feeding upon other live fish and crayfish and what not.

The catfish that I go after will NOT eat any trash (nothing dead). The Flathead Catfish Is strictly a predatory fish. This is why I use other fish (live) as bait to catch them. I cooked some up and took them to a wild game feed on two occasions and the majority of the people confused them for Walleye. That's how good their meat is when prepared and cooked properly.

I wasn't so sure that my Dad got the fish name right, but after I saw them, yep... That is what they are.

Gordy

 

[Waterbug]

I guess a fish that eats other fish that eat poop makes that fish a superior meal.

The other fish on Dirty Jobs was Stripped Bass.

 

[Mmathis]

Love Mike Rowe & DIRTY JOBS! Hey, it's a dirty job, but someone - or something's -- got to do it. Even if it's another fish!

 

[Mmathis]

@fishin4cars Wow, here's a blast from the past! We were just [well, several weeks ago....] talking about my possibly using a DIY settlement chamber and I was wondering if it would gravity-flow into the Skippy. So, I was searching for DIY plans, and this thread popped up.......4 years old. And I still feel like a newbie, LOL!
__________________________________
I don't see discussions like this one show up on GPF much anymore -- back then the information exchange was different and I learned a lot regarding the practical side of how a pond works and what some of the various equipment did [or didn't] do. So I thought I would revive my old thread just for a little variety and to see if anything has changed [in 4 years] as far as DIY settlement chamber-type innoventions! I'm going to go with Larkin's very basic plan ['cause all I can construct is "basic"], but there might be other members out there who are in need, as well, but without a clue.

I miss @Waterbug and @Catfishnut [Gordy]! Guys, if you're out there, and this note "pings," your emails.........