Scaled vs non scaled Koi

[fishin4cars]

Those of you that keep or have kept Koi, I'm curious if Scaled koi are more hardy than non-scaled (Ogon?). Or are they about the same? Mostly intrested in infections, ulcers, parasite attacks. Also any input on Standard koi vs Butterfly. No real need for the information but I'm just thinking about future purchases in case I'm ever actually able to set up a REAL area to breed koi what I may want to try and work with.
I have to say that my favorites are Beni Kumonryu, Doitsu Sanke and Showa, and Kikusui. All scaless. I'm also wanting to lean more toward butterfly koi. If this takes place It will be years down the road but I'm intrested in seeing what information or input I get out of this. Thanks in advance

 

[mrsclem]

I have both scaled and non scaled as well as butterfly koi. I have seen no difference in hardiness however some treatments warn not using on scaleless fish. I'm thinking some of the harsher chemicals would irritate their skin.

 

[koiguy1969]

it would seem a scaleless would be much more prone to external parasites, injury, and infection... ive never had one to make an educated statement.

 

[RSFish1]

I have all of the above. I have never seen a difference in any of them when it comes to injuries. I have never had to treat for any real illnesses so I cannot speak from that side of it though.
The only dis-advantage I have seen with the scaleless is that when an injury occurs there are no scales to hide the scar.
A note on the breeding side. Butterfly are a fairly new breed. Regular fin have been bred for years and years. You really need to have a couple of butterfly parents that have been bred purely from other butterfly parents for as many generations as possible. Otherwise you end up with still a lot of standard fin koi and not so elegant butterfly fins. That's why I enjoy working with the butterfly Koi. There is a genetics side there that can make you really scratch your head at times. Not only do you have to think about the colors, but also about what you are looking for in the fin types.

 

[fishin4cars]

Thanks for the replies! I've been doing some research about breeding color and confirmation. along with breeding standards, butterfly and crosses. I have both but when it comes time for controlled breeding I'm going to start off breeding standard to standard and butterfly to butterfly, later on I may attempt at crossing the two for specific color genetics. got a lot of learning to do and some serious pond building also before all that takes place. for now I'll just take what mother nature dishes out and be happy with that. I ended up with a few babies last year, all turned out to be butterfly with gin rin. none looked even closely similar to the parents and I still don't know where the gin rin came from as both parents were not gin rins at all.

 

[DrDave]

My original breeding stock were kohaku and sanke. Thousands of fry later, only a few turned out to look anything like the parent fish.

 

[fishin4cars]

We went last year to a koi farm that shows their koi. They only have Kohaku, sanke, showa's and shiro utsuri for breeding stock, that's all they have worked on for many years but while looking at the younger fish I must have seen 50% of the fry (2-3" long) that looked nothing like the parents. This farm sells those off first as culls. Not bad looking fish by any means but the man who runs the farm puts those out first and the cheapest to try and watch the ones that could turn to be more show quality longer. It was intresting to see what colors showed up even though there were none like them as large fish any where on the farm.

 

[RSFish1]

It is so much fun seeing what the fry will look like. You would think with all the in-breeding of Koi throughout the years the fry babies would be more consistent. But I guess it is Mother Nature's way of keeping a variety out there.

 

[taherrmann4]

I have had one of each for about 5 years now. The scaleless one just this year has some sort of skin problem, could be where he is rubbing himself up against the rocks but not sure, it seems to have stabilized the last week but I am watching him closely. I didn't even realize he was scaleless until he got bigger. That is the only problemI have ever had with any of my fish.

 

[fishin4cars]

I have had one of each for about 5 years now. The scaleless one just this year has some sort of skin problem, could be where he is rubbing himself up against the rocks but not sure, it seems to have stabilized the last week but I am watching him closely. I didn't even realize he was scaleless until he got bigger. That is the only problemI have ever had with any of my fish.

You stated some sort of skin problem. Does it appear to be sores, mucus or slim hanging off, or something else? My local store has a koi that is about 8-10" long and is scaless. It appears to have wrinkles down the lower side near the belly region on both sides . No sores, no mucus, just appears to be wrinkles or lines down each side. The fish seems to be in perfect health other than that. Active, feeds well, stays with the group. nothing that makes us think it is sick but it does baffle us somewhat. It is scaless except for a few scales along each side of the dorsal fin.

 

[taherrmann4]

You stated some sort of skin problem. Does it appear to be sores, mucus or slim hanging off, or something else? My local store has a koi that is about 8-10" long and is scaless. It appears to have wrinkles down the lower side near the belly region on both sides . No sores, no mucus, just appears to be wrinkles or lines down each side. The fish seems to be in perfect health other than that. Active, feeds well, stays with the group. nothing that makes us think it is sick but it does baffle us somewhat. It is scaless except for a few scales along each side of the dorsal fin.

It now looks like sores along both sides on him on his back, starts at his dorsal fin and goes down each side along his whole back. It started out looking like he was peeling but he is scaleless and then turned a pinkish color, but it now seems to have stabilized and not gotten any worse. I would put him in a hospital tank but I don't have one and I am also going on vacation for a week so maybe when I get back I will give it a shot. He seems to be fine other than that.

 

[fishin4cars]

It now looks like sores along both sides on him on his back, starts at his dorsal fin and goes down each side along his whole back. It started out looking like he was peeling but he is scaleless and then turned a pinkish color, but it now seems to have stabilized and not gotten any worse. I would put him in a hospital tank but I don't have one and I am also going on vacation for a week so maybe when I get back I will give it a shot. He seems to be fine other than that.

I was wondering about that, I saw some peeling early in the season with a couple of my Koi, No sores and it went away. I was reading on another pond forum of someone that was experiencing the same thing and we really didn't know what caused it or what it was. It did the same thing, left a pinkish area where the mucus was peeling but it went away when I added salt and has not reappeared since then.

 

[taherrmann4]

I added a little salt but I like my plants and don't want to damage them with too much.

 

[fishin4cars]

I added a little salt but I like my plants and don't want to damage them with too much.

You can add up to 1 cup per 1000 gallons with no effects on most plants, I've heard on here of FAR higher dosings (1 cup per 100 gallons) but not sure if it was with plants or not.

 

[DrDave]

1:100 and the plants will definetly die. Plus, this is way too high for sustained use on fresh water fish.