waynefrcan
19 years ponding and hopefully 4 more!
Limited quantities of rock as you suggest, will benefit your pond.
River Rock vs Pea Gravel
- Thread starter GreatDanesDad
- Start date
brandonsdad02
They call me Ryan
WB.
I'm not sure where you are learning about water pipes bursting well inside a house from a ice blockage, but I have to disagree. In the past when I have had to repair broken water pipes from freezing, its almost exactly where the pipe froze. If your saying that water pipes burst from the pressure of the water having no where to go, then why don't we have water pipe breaks all the time? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but ok I guess. The same thing with water freezing under the roads during the winter. The water freezes and most of the time the road will heave a little....or a lot. Most of us that live where we get a lot of snow...Half way thru the winter we like to hear snow in the forecast for one reason....the potholes are filled in with snow and we don't have to get our neck readjusted that week.
Back on the subject
I have some rocks in my pond. If you are going to add rocks, I would say just a few so its not so hard to clean the bottom, and def. don't do the pea gravel. I have a pond vac which does work surprisingly well so cleaning the bottom of the pond isn't so bad for me. The softball size rocks makes it easy to clean around and net the bottom. During fall, I use the pond vac to get the leaves out that sink to the bottom before the skimmer box can get them.
I'm not sure where you are learning about water pipes bursting well inside a house from a ice blockage, but I have to disagree. In the past when I have had to repair broken water pipes from freezing, its almost exactly where the pipe froze. If your saying that water pipes burst from the pressure of the water having no where to go, then why don't we have water pipe breaks all the time? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but ok I guess. The same thing with water freezing under the roads during the winter. The water freezes and most of the time the road will heave a little....or a lot. Most of us that live where we get a lot of snow...Half way thru the winter we like to hear snow in the forecast for one reason....the potholes are filled in with snow and we don't have to get our neck readjusted that week.
Back on the subject
I have some rocks in my pond. If you are going to add rocks, I would say just a few so its not so hard to clean the bottom, and def. don't do the pea gravel. I have a pond vac which does work surprisingly well so cleaning the bottom of the pond isn't so bad for me. The softball size rocks makes it easy to clean around and net the bottom. During fall, I use the pond vac to get the leaves out that sink to the bottom before the skimmer box can get them.
Meaning no one in Canada? Really, NO one and I mean NO one? Wow, you have really good info.
This thread is all over the place, but my concern about the way waterbug has those mortared rocks up the side and along the berm, was not with the water in the pond or between the rocks and the liner, but from the ground itself. The case I cited earlier was caused by frost heaving beside the pond.
Frost heaving is an interesting phenomena, it's expansion is not limited to the 10% water expansion. Rather, frost heaving occurs under a special set of circumstances with the right type of porous soil that is able to transport water by capillary action to the freezing surface and grow an "ice lens" shaped area that can heave the ground, or anything else in the way, up to 30 cm or more. It could never happen sideways directly towards the pond, but could happen on the edge of the pond, as happened in the case I cited earlier, which would be enough to bust apart any concrete berms or walls that were attached to the berms.
Because frost heaving is so dependent of things like having cold enough temperatures, a water source to feed it, and having the right type of soil, it doesn't happen everywhere, but it is the main reason we try to make sure foundation footings are buried below frost levels.
There are thousands of cases where house foundations, concrete pools, reinforced retaining walls, etc, etc, have failed because of frost heaving.
http://en.wikipedia....i/Frost_heaving
Frost heaving is an interesting phenomena, it's expansion is not limited to the 10% water expansion. Rather, frost heaving occurs under a special set of circumstances with the right type of porous soil that is able to transport water by capillary action to the freezing surface and grow an "ice lens" shaped area that can heave the ground, or anything else in the way, up to 30 cm or more. It could never happen sideways directly towards the pond, but could happen on the edge of the pond, as happened in the case I cited earlier, which would be enough to bust apart any concrete berms or walls that were attached to the berms.
Because frost heaving is so dependent of things like having cold enough temperatures, a water source to feed it, and having the right type of soil, it doesn't happen everywhere, but it is the main reason we try to make sure foundation footings are buried below frost levels.
There are thousands of cases where house foundations, concrete pools, reinforced retaining walls, etc, etc, have failed because of frost heaving.
http://en.wikipedia....i/Frost_heaving
Soooo we're talking about bare liner vs loose rocks right?
Personally I think it's dumb as hell to stack loose rock up a unreinforced vertical wall. I think it's dumb as hell to dig a vertical wall pond in soil and just lay a bare liner over it. Sandy soil, wet soil, freezing soil, that wall is going to collapse. Even hard as hell bone dry clay soil here in Phoenix, that wall is probably going to collapse. It's a dumb way to build any pond imo. Bare liner, loose rock or mortared rock doesn't matter, dumb design.
Gee, could there be any engineering solution for this problem? Like maybe slope that wall back even say a lousy 10 degrees? In a 4' deep pond that would slope back the wall 8.5".
Oh, but ice can move stuff 8.5"...OK 20 degrees = sloped back 18", 30 degrees = sloped back 28". 45 degrees = 48". At some point even the most uninformed surely has to say, well gee, maybe ice can't move stuff 4'. Loose or mortared rock can heave and crack until the cows come home...it's going to stay there. It's not going to be flung out of the pond.
Ever try to pull a piece of cracked and even loose concrete out? Almost impossible. It's keyed in by the surrounding concrete.
Yes, a vertical veneer wall can collapse. So don't build it that way.
In the debate of bare vs loose rock...if a person is considering loose rock and their only issue is muck collecting in between then mortar can solve that problem. You are not going to have more problems because of the mortar than if you choose just loose rock even in the worst freezing fantasy world stories someone can create except maybe the "mortar explodes when frozen" stories. The mortar is only going to reduce the risks because the rocks will be keyed together better. This isn't even complex.
These bare vs rock discussions have always been and will always be the absolute worst threads in pond forum history. But also the most entertaining.
Personally I think it's dumb as hell to stack loose rock up a unreinforced vertical wall. I think it's dumb as hell to dig a vertical wall pond in soil and just lay a bare liner over it. Sandy soil, wet soil, freezing soil, that wall is going to collapse. Even hard as hell bone dry clay soil here in Phoenix, that wall is probably going to collapse. It's a dumb way to build any pond imo. Bare liner, loose rock or mortared rock doesn't matter, dumb design.
Gee, could there be any engineering solution for this problem? Like maybe slope that wall back even say a lousy 10 degrees? In a 4' deep pond that would slope back the wall 8.5".
Oh, but ice can move stuff 8.5"...OK 20 degrees = sloped back 18", 30 degrees = sloped back 28". 45 degrees = 48". At some point even the most uninformed surely has to say, well gee, maybe ice can't move stuff 4'. Loose or mortared rock can heave and crack until the cows come home...it's going to stay there. It's not going to be flung out of the pond.
Ever try to pull a piece of cracked and even loose concrete out? Almost impossible. It's keyed in by the surrounding concrete.
Yes, a vertical veneer wall can collapse. So don't build it that way.
In the debate of bare vs loose rock...if a person is considering loose rock and their only issue is muck collecting in between then mortar can solve that problem. You are not going to have more problems because of the mortar than if you choose just loose rock even in the worst freezing fantasy world stories someone can create except maybe the "mortar explodes when frozen" stories. The mortar is only going to reduce the risks because the rocks will be keyed together better. This isn't even complex.
These bare vs rock discussions have always been and will always be the absolute worst threads in pond forum history. But also the most entertaining.
waynefrcan
19 years ponding and hopefully 4 more!
Mortared rock or bare liner is not natural looking. If you want a true natural looking pond, its rock over liner. Guess what I went with rock.
And I don't have to be reminded a thousand times that they require more effort to keep clean. The smart ones{me} know this and have taken steps in the design process to help with maint. Some others have problems and then cry NO ROcks, NO Rocks for the rest of there lives.
And I don't have to be reminded a thousand times that they require more effort to keep clean. The smart ones{me} know this and have taken steps in the design process to help with maint. Some others have problems and then cry NO ROcks, NO Rocks for the rest of there lives.
Waterbug I am often amazed at the length and detail of your responses you sometimes post in these forums, I appretiate the effort it takes. You seem to have a lot of experience with pond building and a detailed understanding of many of the related fields (eg. water chemistry, algae, masonry, etc...), and it's great that you are willing to share it.
However when you consider the sheer volume of topics you cover and your own strong views on particular maters, coupled with your sometimes very condescending method of delivery, it's no wonder you are always expecting to end up in some sort of forum "flame war".
Your last post actually made sense to me and has some really practical information in it that would likely be very useful to someone intending to emulate your rock mortared pond method, for that I praise you. Now if only you could find a way to say these things with out all the condescending portions of your posts we could have some really meaningful discussions. It's too bad.
However when you consider the sheer volume of topics you cover and your own strong views on particular maters, coupled with your sometimes very condescending method of delivery, it's no wonder you are always expecting to end up in some sort of forum "flame war".
Your last post actually made sense to me and has some really practical information in it that would likely be very useful to someone intending to emulate your rock mortared pond method, for that I praise you. Now if only you could find a way to say these things with out all the condescending portions of your posts we could have some really meaningful discussions. It's too bad.
Most people can not tell the difference between mortared rock and loose rock if that is the look desired when installed. Underwater almost no one could tell the difference. I think the only people who could tell the difference would be people who have never seen such an installation because NO one and I mean NO one does that in their world but knows for a fact that if they happen it ever actually see such an install they'd know exactly how it would look.
I'm so sorry Mucky if my bedside manner isn't up to your standards. I lay awake at night wondering how I could elevate myself in your eyes. Just wanted to get the condescending portion over as quickly as possible.Now if only you could find a way to say these things with out all the condescending portions of your posts we could have some really meaningful discussions. It's too bad.
Yeah, I have little patience for blowhards and closed minded fools. I find it to be too much work to try and stoke their egos while still trying to explain something to people who still have an open mind. And it's not just registered people but also viewers who never post. They send emails to discuss things. I never ask why they don't post but some, on their own, express a displeasure of closed minded forum "experts". I know you like using air quotes to disparage others so I'm throwing one of those in too. It is too bad people can't be more civil.
Luckily the world has righteous people, such as yourself, who, while may not be able to see their own incivility, can certainly spot it in others.
Wayne you seem to handle on what is involved in having a rock bottom pond, but please keep in mind that there are LOTS of people who, for one reason or another, end up with a rock bottom pond and don't have any idea of the maintenance involved and often end up in a very frustrating situation with their ponds. You just have to read these forums long enough and you'll hear many of the stories, that's why so many people give such loud warnings. I know that YOU are aware of the potential problems, but not everybody knows that, so don't take these warnings personally. Instead, if you have a maintenance solution for rock bottom ponds that you think works, offer that as a reply, or better yet create a thread with detailed information on the subject and post a link to that thread.
BTW how's the sod project going?
brandonsdad02
They call me Ryan
WB
People come here for advise and to ask questions. Not to be bullied by your blowhard, know it all everyone else is worthless attitude. If I was a mod you would have been banned long before now.
Back on topic. I have seen at the pond store some stuff you can put in your pond to help with the muck on the bottom. I haven't tried it but one of my friends up here has a 6k gal pond that she drains and power washes all the rocks every spring. She is going to try the muck stuff this fall and see how it works.
People come here for advise and to ask questions. Not to be bullied by your blowhard, know it all everyone else is worthless attitude. If I was a mod you would have been banned long before now.
Back on topic. I have seen at the pond store some stuff you can put in your pond to help with the muck on the bottom. I haven't tried it but one of my friends up here has a 6k gal pond that she drains and power washes all the rocks every spring. She is going to try the muck stuff this fall and see how it works.
waynefrcan
19 years ponding and hopefully 4 more!
Good point. Without getting into the whole freeze thaw debate, mortared in rock 3" deep in sidewalls and bottom is to scary for us up here. I would be worried about the cracking, shifting damage to the liner under it. Swimming pools ok, but they don't sit on a thin rubber liner.
waynefrcan
19 years ponding and hopefully 4 more!
WB has tons of good advice, however not all can be considered practical or accurate for everyones situation.
Please understand this and don't get so defensive.
Please understand this and don't get so defensive.
But they can be, it's not really that hard. This forum is full of great examples of that. Please, come join us, you are missing out on something really good. :luxlove:
OK, time for me to come clean.
When I first started posting here I mentioned a few times that I was posting in order to start thinking about my next pond since I'd been out of ponding for 7 years or so. I have my next design in mind and will post that build when and if I proceed. I also kind of feel like I'm back up to speed on the advancements made in ponding so I don't need the aggressive learning curve I've been climbing.
The coming clean part...
Several people have sent me emails and personal messages asking me how I learned about ponds...thinking I guess that there's some book or web site containing great info. I normally say something like "I read a lot of forums" which is true and point them to a few. I left out the best way I learn because I kind of had to or it stops working. I lucked into this 15 years ago when I first started learning about ponds.
Reading lots of sources gets a lot of info in my head, but most doesn't stick that well or I miss connections or I don't understand it as well as I think I do. What's missing is testing. Without testing yourself you can't test your knowledge. Normally testing is done by building a pond. Pretty time consuming as it can take years for some issues to appear and test your knowledge. Also expensive to have to build lots of ponds which is what I did last go around. I wanted a shorter cycle.
The testing shortcut is to find a forum that has no regular posters with a lot of experience (multiple pond builds) and then challenge the local dogma of regular posters. For example I think my first was saying something about Skippy being a poor bio filter, which I believe to true and can be supported. It's not really trolling, at least that wasn't my purpose. The goal is not to completely pee people off, but just poke their dogma a little to get them to challenge back, to test my knowledge. When I first did this with Skippy I think Trickle Towers was the last good bio filter I knew about from 7 years earlier. When a person's dogma is challenged they take it very personally and read every word you write, several times, looking for any error they can exploit. Other people who were challenged also read posts looking for something they can pounce on. That's good. They may even use Google to try and come up with arguments, although amazingly almost never to they actually check facts.
That keeps me on my toes, it forces me to research to make sure there is a reasonable basis for what's stuck in my head. Just a couple of slip ups and rebuttals will just be "oh yeah, well remember when you said that dumb thing". More than a few times I started to write a post to explain why a poster was incorrect but stopped and thought "maybe I should check that". Sure enough I'd sometimes be wrong. No problem, out with the bad and in with the good. It forced me to read the same articles several times.
This whole process depends on an open mind for yourself and the closed minds of others. It doesn't work with an opened minded person because they just say "I need to check that" or "that's interesting, I'd never heard that", or "where can I get more info". To be challenged you need people who will dig in their heels and stay the course even when it's become obvious they have no idea what they're talking about. Online forums provide a rich environment. All people, my self included, are closed minded to some degree, but still you can't beat online forums.
In this process I've learned a lot by challenging the local dogma here. Moiving bed, Bakki shower, tons about bacteria, TPRs, sieve, trickle water changes, construction of pond walls and lots of other stuff that I had no clue about when I started.
So I am truly sorry to have ruffled a few egos in the process, just no way around it. I felt it was necessary in order to learn. I did add people to my ignore list whenever they became too upset so that I would not keep challenging their dogma. Like I said, I wasn't trying to be a troll, but I understand some will think that and I can't blame them. I sincerely thank the people who did take the time to challenge me, you helped me a lot. I known it wasn't pleasant for you. I learned a lot and wish you could have too.
All the info I posted was what I thought, and still think, is the state of the art in pond keeping. I did a lot of research to make sure that was true. Never once did I post something misleading or what I knew to be incorrect in order to bait anyone.
So imo the secret to learning about ponds is an open mind. People asked and now I feel better about telling the whole story.
This isn't a goodbye post...but obviously I won't be challenging dogma here any more as the cat is out of the bag.
Thanks again.
When I first started posting here I mentioned a few times that I was posting in order to start thinking about my next pond since I'd been out of ponding for 7 years or so. I have my next design in mind and will post that build when and if I proceed. I also kind of feel like I'm back up to speed on the advancements made in ponding so I don't need the aggressive learning curve I've been climbing.
The coming clean part...
Several people have sent me emails and personal messages asking me how I learned about ponds...thinking I guess that there's some book or web site containing great info. I normally say something like "I read a lot of forums" which is true and point them to a few. I left out the best way I learn because I kind of had to or it stops working. I lucked into this 15 years ago when I first started learning about ponds.
Reading lots of sources gets a lot of info in my head, but most doesn't stick that well or I miss connections or I don't understand it as well as I think I do. What's missing is testing. Without testing yourself you can't test your knowledge. Normally testing is done by building a pond. Pretty time consuming as it can take years for some issues to appear and test your knowledge. Also expensive to have to build lots of ponds which is what I did last go around. I wanted a shorter cycle.
The testing shortcut is to find a forum that has no regular posters with a lot of experience (multiple pond builds) and then challenge the local dogma of regular posters. For example I think my first was saying something about Skippy being a poor bio filter, which I believe to true and can be supported. It's not really trolling, at least that wasn't my purpose. The goal is not to completely pee people off, but just poke their dogma a little to get them to challenge back, to test my knowledge. When I first did this with Skippy I think Trickle Towers was the last good bio filter I knew about from 7 years earlier. When a person's dogma is challenged they take it very personally and read every word you write, several times, looking for any error they can exploit. Other people who were challenged also read posts looking for something they can pounce on. That's good. They may even use Google to try and come up with arguments, although amazingly almost never to they actually check facts.
That keeps me on my toes, it forces me to research to make sure there is a reasonable basis for what's stuck in my head. Just a couple of slip ups and rebuttals will just be "oh yeah, well remember when you said that dumb thing". More than a few times I started to write a post to explain why a poster was incorrect but stopped and thought "maybe I should check that". Sure enough I'd sometimes be wrong. No problem, out with the bad and in with the good. It forced me to read the same articles several times.
This whole process depends on an open mind for yourself and the closed minds of others. It doesn't work with an opened minded person because they just say "I need to check that" or "that's interesting, I'd never heard that", or "where can I get more info". To be challenged you need people who will dig in their heels and stay the course even when it's become obvious they have no idea what they're talking about. Online forums provide a rich environment. All people, my self included, are closed minded to some degree, but still you can't beat online forums.
In this process I've learned a lot by challenging the local dogma here. Moiving bed, Bakki shower, tons about bacteria, TPRs, sieve, trickle water changes, construction of pond walls and lots of other stuff that I had no clue about when I started.
So I am truly sorry to have ruffled a few egos in the process, just no way around it. I felt it was necessary in order to learn. I did add people to my ignore list whenever they became too upset so that I would not keep challenging their dogma. Like I said, I wasn't trying to be a troll, but I understand some will think that and I can't blame them. I sincerely thank the people who did take the time to challenge me, you helped me a lot. I known it wasn't pleasant for you. I learned a lot and wish you could have too.
All the info I posted was what I thought, and still think, is the state of the art in pond keeping. I did a lot of research to make sure that was true. Never once did I post something misleading or what I knew to be incorrect in order to bait anyone.
So imo the secret to learning about ponds is an open mind. People asked and now I feel better about telling the whole story.
This isn't a goodbye post...but obviously I won't be challenging dogma here any more as the cat is out of the bag.
Thanks again.