Risk of shelf collapse from rain?

[TheFishGuy]

I think the only way you really save money when building a pond is to provide your own labor. We were able to get great pricing on all the components for our pond build by working out a package deal with a local landscaper. He gave us his contractor pricing because we were using him for rocks and he did some excavating for us. So there are ways to save, but I wouldn't recommend doing it by improvisation.

Totally understand, may I ask we be done with this discussion now?

Thanks

 

[Lisak1]

may I ask we be done with this discussion now?

haha! No controlling the narrative here - sorry! You can of course scroll on by though.

 

[TheFishGuy]

haha! No controlling the narrative here - sorry! You can of course scroll on by though.

just saying our little side conversation,

of course not the main one.

 

[brokensword]

I think the only way you really save money when building a pond is to provide your own labor. We were able to get great pricing on all the components for our pond build by working out a package deal with a local landscaper. He gave us his contractor pricing because we were using him for rocks and he did some excavating for us. So there are ways to save, but I wouldn't recommend doing it by improvisation.

Lisa,

with all due respect, I'm one of those 'improvisation' types and I can assure you, I've saved a LOT of money this way. The trick is understanding the system as a whole, then comparing the 'expert's system to what you're using for the 'improvise'. An example; I'd have had to spend over $2000 for an Aquascape centipede and snorkel system. Mine cost less than $100. Is it as heavy duty/manufactured as what I built? Probably not but quite close and it WILL last for decades, thus doing the job as specified. The idea I'm trying to get across of course is that I don't believe in overpaying. There's no reason something made of similar plastic has to cost me 2 grand. Same goes for those Aquablox; there's a couple of threads with substitutes that people use.

I do take your point re FishGuy, but if you couch advice in what has worked for you with the parameters you work with, I see nothing wrong with other options. Seriously, I believe jeremeydmeyer76 was the one quoted at 40K for his pond, which is similar size to mine. My cost was about 5K including original dig and the expansion. You're right in that most of the savings are re labor but surely, you can save a lot too with some research and innovation.

Just thought I'd raise a hand for improvisors!

 

[Lisak1]

Fair enough. Perhaps you need to know which crowd you fall into - the side that loves to tinker and doesn't mind if something doesn't work like you hoped it would the first time, or the side where I dwell, where you just want to do it once and be done. I'm an improviser. I love out of the box thinking. And I'm generally also quite frugal. I just don't enjoy re-doing things. Nor do I like problems.

So perhaps I should frame it more along the lines of putting cost ahead of ALL other considerations. It's like saying "I want to build a house. A big house. A really nice house. But I only have $XX. How can I save money on the foundation?" There are lots of ways to save money while building a house, but maybe don't start with the first thing you put in the ground.

 

[brokensword]

heh, funny you should mention that, Lisa; I built my house, 90% by myself, so I can actually say I put in the foundation too! LOL

And not the first time? Ha, how about third or fourth? How else can we learn??? Been there done that! I think though, it's this type of mentality that has taught me skills I can use in other areas, so I'm definitely pro 'try it your self'.

 

[GBBUDD]

The gist i took is there are risks. If your willing to use carpet pad or old carpet your gambling there' nothing in it or that it won't rot out over time or even mold out from the moisture that is coming.. I agree with going with some insurance. Spend the money on the foundation and use sand and thicker layers of underlayment. And this comes from more experience then I care to admitt too. Fact mother nature can move a rock /boulder upwards of 6 inches in the course of a year. So what looks great now could easily change down the road. Will it ? only mother nature knows. If you have shale or slate weathered granite i would not take the risk. If you have clay ? hardly a rock, then you have little chance of failure. Lots of top soil can change drastically by the presence of water and if there's a lot and th water drains quickly then you may have an underground stream and things could change under even with the liner and rocks on it. You never know. So i agree All the input here is DYI weall have had our life experiences so many more then others. Now this young man i would put up against my step daughter in building a pond hands down he would win. But if it was just in the planning part of building and she HAD too she'd probably win because she would not have to get dirty and she could surf the web till she was blue.

 

[addy1]

If your willing to use carpet pad or old carpet your gambling there' nothing in it or that it won't rot out over time or even mold out from the moisture that is coming.

I used both in my AZ pond, when I pulled it apart, it was dirty but not rotted molded etc. Here I used carpet pad, I moved some liner a bit ago and it is still looking good 9 years later.

 

[GBBUDD]

Improvisors DREAMERS those who dare to take a risk Learn to fly .

No risk no reward.

I gambled in many ways I built my bog much deeper then recommended . I to did not use a store bought snorkel centipede. but i did not chinse on underlayment just the opposite i went heavier

 

[GBBUDD]

Thats the point one person one location is advise that worked for them. else where you never know. i have dug enough holes to know in areas like New England you can dig two identical holes 10 feet apart and have totally different soils and moisture or rock content. you just never know is it native or glacial or even man made fill.

 

[Lisak1]

@brokensword - see you're in the first camp! I can do lots of creative things, but if it requires accuracy and precision, I'm out. I sewed Halloween costumes for my kids for many years, but I would never had attempted to make them something they actually had to wear!

We definitely took a risk just building our bog. We were kind of at the beginning of the bog revolution (lead by @addy1 - haha!) and were able of find very little in the way of information or inspiration when it came to "how to". (Don't ask me how I never managed to stumble on THIS forum!) So we had to really reason our way through the whole process and understand how this wasn't a "bog" like in nature, but shared some of the same functionality.

All we heard from experienced long time pond builders was "that will NEVER work". Aquascape was just starting to tinker with bogs at that time for home ponds so we would hear the word "wetland filter" from time to time on a pond tour, but never actually saw one built from start to finish until we built ours. We were just kind of putting ideas together as we went along. We did use centipedes and snorkels though - for us there was a level of comfort in using a tested product versus putting something together on our own. Now I would have a lot more confidence in that process. But for the amount of enjoyment we get out of our pond, I don't regret a single penny we spent.

Now I love to go back and tell those "experienced" pond people what they DON'T know about constructed wetland filters. And don't even get me started on my negative edge -

 

[brokensword]

@brokensword - see you're in the first camp! I can do lots of creative things, but if it requires accuracy and precision, I'm out. I sewed Halloween costumes for my kids for many years, but I would never had attempted to make them something they actually had to wear!

We definitely took a risk just building our bog. We were kind of at the beginning of the bog revolution (lead by @addy1 - haha!) and were able of find very little in the way of information or inspiration when it came to "how to". (Don't ask me how I never managed to stumble on THIS forum!) So we had to really reason our way through the whole process and understand how this wasn't a "bog" like in nature, but shared some of the same functionality.

All we heard from experienced long time pond builders was "that will NEVER work". Aquascape was just starting to tinker with bogs at that time for home ponds so we would hear the word "wetland filter" from time to time on a pond tour, but never actually saw one built from start to finish until we built ours. We were just kind of putting ideas together as we went along. We did use centipedes and snorkels though - for us there was a level of comfort in using a tested product versus putting something together on our own. Now I would have a lot more confidence in that process. But for the amount of enjoyment we get out of our pond, I don't regret a single penny we spent.

Now I love to go back and tell those "experienced" pond people what they DON'T know about constructed wetland filters. And don't even get me started on my negative edge -

I actually found info re a bog from a professional pond builder in Ga. There was a write up and since I like plants, a filter made from them was right up my alley. Didn't really know much re cycling or anything (funny, too, since I've had aquariums since I was a kid; just followed whatever my dad did and must have absorbed it by osmosis without really knowing what I was doing!) and the only gripe I had with the instructions was there was no obvious statement re slopping the bog walls. Hence, I dug straight down. Other than that, though, this guy must also have been on the leading edge of wetland filtration. He used large stones graduating to smaller until a top layer of pea gravel; that's why I did mine as I did. And as far as I can figure, I've seen no one else mention using 4" drain pipe. Most are using the 1-1/2 or 2" rigid pvc. But if you think about it, the 4" will slow the water and provide more 'muck buildup' time, as an Aquablox does. And it was cheap to build, other than jury-rigging the vault and vertical chute. I actually looked at what he suggested--12" corrugated plastic drain pipe but it was $75 minimum and I figured I could mimic for a lot less. Might sound wonky, but since I had all these empty plastic cat litter pails (and wouldn't you know? My extra sump pump fit nicely inside!), I cut bottoms out and stacked them until I had my 40" of height. So you can see, I don't overpay, hey?

I've visited Koiphen (still do, but just for kicks) and it's pretty amazing how blinded they are relative to what can be done. I guess, according to them, there's really only one way to have a koi pond. I tend to 'want it all' so until I run into that immoveable object, this unstoppable force will just keep going!

Why exactly did you shy away from the tried and true of canister, barrel, drum, RDI, settling pools, multiple stage filter systems that so many koi videos promote? I shake my head when I see these, both at the probable cost as well as space/maintenance they consume. But, many like to tinker and that's probably part of the allure of ponding for them. I'd rather tweak and sit back and relax, once the initial setup is up and running. Gives me more time to figure out underwater video systems, water-level video ideas, and even an aerial view (haven't mastered my new drone yet, but maybe next summer!).

And I hear you; you're still ALSO in a category of your own as most would hire much of what you did out and then just relax. I think ponding almost necessitates hands-on involvement to get the most out of the experience. Like many endeavors, you only get back what you put in.

Also, have you fully finished with koi? I know you lost all but one. I found since I got the 'bug', it's hard to now stop. I decided there wasn't enough color variety in just goldfish so I tried my hand at koi. It was my main motivator for the expansion as I lost one of my first 3 over winter and figured I'd broken the envelope.

 

[Lisak1]

I've often said if the only way to have a pond was to have the type of filtration people have on dedicated koi ponds, I would have said no way, no how, no pond. I'm a relatively lazy gardener - which surprises people when they actually see my gardens because they think it's got to be nothing but work. But I've learned to do things so there is little maintenance once things get established - plant densely, choose your plants well, and establish a "set it and forget it" watering system and enjoy the show. So the idea of backwashing filters and cleaning filter pads and water testing and bottom drains, trickles, showers, Bakki or whatever they are - anything I have to repeat repeat repeat... that's not fun. That's work and I do plenty of that INSIDE the house!

We were all set to install a biofalls but we knew we wanted a negative edge with a rain exchange rather than a skimmer. While we were pricing the equipment for that, the guy we were working with said "you should really consider a bog filter instead of a biofalls. Your pond would be perfect for it". And I remembered that we had heard that word "bog" before and I was intrigued. He gave us a brief rundown on the concept and the rest is history. I am eternally grateful for that brief moment in time! I do think you're right about the tinkering - for some, the fun is in keeping things running. Like people who like to fool with computers or old cars - they get excited when something needs fixing. Not me - I want to move on to the next project!

Yeah, I don't think I can bring myself to get koi again - I love them, but it was just too heartbreaking to go through that loss. Here's the issue with our pond set up - it's about 2500 gallons in the pond, 1000 gallons in the rain exchange and another 600 in the bog, so plenty of water volume for some good sized fish. However, if the pump fails for any reason, now we reduce our water volume by that extra 1600 gallons that's no longer circulating. And that's insurmountable. The same winter that we lost all but one koi we had a 3 dozen or more goldfish - didn't lose a single one. So I just feel like our pond is better suited for goldfish. My husband keeps saying we should get one more koi - maybe an all white one to contrast with our all black one, but I keep resisting. Things are pretty solid right now.

Sorry @combatwombat - hijacked your thread! Back to your collapsing shelves!

 

[GBBUDD]

I've often said if the only way to have a pond was to have the type of filtration people have on dedicated koi ponds, I would have said no way

I couldn't have as i leave my pond to fend for it's self for weeks on end

It was after reading posts here about pump failure and o2 levels and fish loss that got the aquarium guy thinking if im not around how can this be made a mute point. my answer was to have more then one pump it does not feed the bog but it's the cistern and the pond . and a small pump just enough to keep water moving . and a air supply to the bog and pond so that all the gravel and bacteria does not strip the 02 from the pond.

a full power loss i have not resolved those issues as i dont have an automatic genrac

 

[mrsclem]

Small gas powered generator but only works if you are home to fire it up. That's another reason we have cameras on the pond we can check on line.