Retrofit bottom drain - install without cutting liner in a running pond

[Mitakuye]

The bottom drain manufacturer provides the pipe inlet specifications (I.e., size of river). We do not need to know the exact product to know this, it is a given.

Drain inlet specifications can not be changed without significantly altering the bottom drain product construction itself.

Either the flow rate must be increased or a reduced pipe size is connected to the drain.

Reducing the pipe size by a 1/2 inch or 1 inch to increase the velocity will likely increase friction tremendously more than simply increasing flow rate.

Increasing flow rate will actually improve drain sweeping performance more than hinder.

 

[Mitakuye]

This is my last post until there is further inquiry for information on this subject that would benefit Usman.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Just clarifying a point of definitions in case @Usman is unaware of the difference. I think anyone would appreciate that. No argument.

 

[Mitakuye]

Usman, my apologies. I misunderstood Mr. Jordan's intent.

 

[Lisak1]

Lots of conversations take place here @Mitakuye that take us in all sorts of directions, with no intent to argue - like a conversation between friends. We all ask questions and share ideas. This is a great learning space. But if you expect to post information and not get feedback, this is probably not going to suit you. We are a lively bunch!

 

[Mitakuye]

Lots of conversations take place here @Mitakuye that take us in all sorts of directions, with no intent to argue - like a conversation between friends. We all ask questions and share ideas. This is a great learning space. But if you expect to post information and not get feedback, this is probably not going to suit you. We are a lively bunch!

Good Morning Lisak1!!

I understand entirely. Although, I do not expect my friends to continually clarify nor correct what I say, unsolicited at each statement I submit that becomes presented to them. This creates a pettiness that I dislike, much as arguing. From this thread and previous thread, I thought I was noticing a pattern. Hopefully, this is just a simple misunderstanding.

It's water under the bridge as they say, hopefuly.

 

[MitchM]

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In the top picture you have a pump above the water line.
What pump are you thinking of that doesn't require priming?

 

[Lisak1]

You'll find people here are both very kind and very smart. We do allow for lots of differences of opinion, but we do make sure to clarify when there are differing opinions vs things which are fact. For example - water is wet: fact. Ponds should never have rocks or gravel in them: opinion. When people state opinions as facts, you may find there are challenges. But it's through clarifying and bolstering our ideas that we learn and grow, right? Don't ever take it personally - it's all in the interest of developing as good pondkeepers.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

for future plans , i had this design in mind i thought would share and get some more ideas/discussion , it should work same way as conventional BT as there will be syphin in the pipe it will be gravity fed . there are some ready made versions too i found out later-on
most of us want bottom drain but installing in linner is difficult and its done while constructing the pond so it can be substitute

I believe it would be nearly impossible to maintain a reliable gravity fed bottom drain with a 3" or greater diameter pipe, especially like the one on the right side pictures below. Creating and maintaining a locked syphon pressure would be an ongoing problem. If fact I'm pretty sure that particular design on the right wouldn't even be workable at all.
The one big advantage of a bottom drain system is that it can be gravity fed to a settling tank or a sieve or something similar which allows the bottom sediment that accumulates on the bottom of the pond to be captured and run smoothly to these devices BEFORE being blended up by the impellers of a pump. When you run a bottom drain directly to a pump first then on to any mechanical filters (like you would likely have to do in any retrofit bottom drain system) then you negate most of the advantages of having a bottom drain in the first place.
The one exception to this might be if you install the retrofit drain through the side of the pond which is often more feasible in existing ponds then a full bottom install.

 

[Usman]

II believe it would be nearly impossible to maintain a reliable gravity fed bottom drain with a 3" or greater diameter pipe, especially like the one on the right side pictures below. Creating and maintaining a locked syphon pressure would be an ongoing problem. If fact I'm pretty sure that particular design on the right wouldn't even be workable at all.
The one big advantage of a bottom drain system is that it can be gravity fed to a settling tank or a sieve or something similar which allows the bottom sediment that accumulates on the bottom of the pond to be captured and run smoothly to these devices BEFORE being blended up by the impellers of a pump. When you run a bottom drain directly to a pump first then on to any mechanical filters (like you would likely have to do in any retrofit bottom drain system)then you negate most of the advantages of having a bottom drain in the first place.
The one exception to this might be if you install the retrofit drain through the side of the pond which is often more feasible in existing ponds then a full bottom install..

good points , yes about pipe it wil need to be wide enough, im wondering why would the syphen break?

do you have desighn of conventional BT that can remove particles before going thru pump? i can think after that how to improve or solve it

i added settlement chamber for same thing some way to separate solid waste and keep flow then send water to filters , whats better design in this case can u draw any .

Thanx

 

[Usman]

Will you use a submersible pump, or external?

i tried to show both as plan if you see 1st pic , i may use submersible

 

[Usman]

Usman, my apologies. I misunderstood Mr. Jordan's intent.

its ok Sir dont take it too serious , me and Mayer always argue too , we had fight in past too after that i was ignoring him then realized hes not bad person hes trying to help every one , can be critical strict at times but i got used to it i take him as uncle professor who tries to correct our shortcomings , some times hes rite some times us , same with every one here need to b patient on others wrong criticism after telling your logical points and on the other hand open for correction too

 

[brokensword]

You'll find people here are both very kind and very smart. We do allow for lots of differences of opinion, but we do make sure to clarify when there are differing opinions vs things which are fact. For example - water is wet: fact. Ponds should never have rocks or gravel in them: opinion. When people state opinions as facts, you may find there are challenges. But it's through clarifying and bolstering our ideas that we learn and grow, right? Don't ever take it personally - it's all in the interest of developing as good pondkeepers.

I can relate as well as show by example; if you were to ask most aquarium keepers if external/additional filtering is necessary for success, I would put money on a sound 'yes'. That said, I've run a saltwater aquarium for years now and have no mechanical filtration. I let the substrate and live rock work as it should and do a water change, about 20%, once monthly. I have 5 fish in a 90 gallon tank, including some soft corrals and invertebrates.

So, you can't keep saltwater fish without auxiliary filtering is fact or opinion? For me it's the latter.

The thing is, most newbies want broad guidelines so as to have a starting point that supplies some success without destroying desire for the hobby, imo. In time, I think modifications can be made based on individual situations.

Well, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Unless I find a better story, of course!

Michael

 

[Mucky_Waters]

good points , yes about pipe it wil need to be wide enough, im wondering why would the syphen break?

do you have desighn of conventional BT that can remove particles before going thru pump? i can think after that how to improve or solve it

i added settlement chamber for same thing some way to separate solid waste and keep flow then send water to filters , whats better design in this case can u draw any .

Thanx

The reason it's harder to maintain a syphon in a larger diameter pipe (tube) than in a larger pipe is because air infiltration. In a small pipe or tube small air bubbles will be pulled along by the flow of water, but in a large diameter pipe the air will tend to get trapped in the highest point in the pipe. A small amount of air up there may not disrupt the flow, but as more and more air gets trapped it will slow the flow eventually shutting it down completely. You'll find that getting all the air out of that pipe and creating a syphon in the first place will be quite a challenge, then over time air will eventually accumulate in there because of normal off gassing of the water.

I wouldn't bother putting in a bottom drain into a pond, retro or standard, unless it was gravity feed.
As I said, your best viable option would be to go through the side of the pond. This can usually be accomplished without draining the pond completely. And no air lock problems.
Here is how I would do it.

 

[Lisak1]

The thing is, most newbies want broad guidelines so as to have a starting point that supplies some success without destroying desire for the hobby, imo. In time, I think modifications can be made based on individual situations

I agree with that... HOWEVER - when we were looking to build a pond, if the only information I had found said that I had to have extensive - and expensive - filtration that would need regular maintenance, I would have said "no thanks!" I'm an easy care kind of gardener.

But as I was researching this pond idea I learned that there are other kinds of ponds out there that were perfect for people like me. As I read further, I realized I could build a pond that was even SIMPLER than the typical "Aquascape style" pond that I was considering by not having any manmade biofilter at all. MIND BLOWN. I was all in at that point, and as a result am a happy, thriving pond owner who might have been turned off if I had only found those forums (ahem) that insist there is only ONE RIGHT WAY to build a pond.

So my story is just like yours - lots of people would tell you that a pond like mine would never work. But it does, in spite of them and their rules. haha!