Restocking fees--encouraging a boycott

[D&RW]

You say "It is very unfair to post a request on the forum recommending that we do so as well." Say what? Very unfair? I'm sorry but I don't understand. It is not only not unfair, it is exactly what this country was founded on. The absolute right to protest. And protest publicly. Of course make your own decisions. And I respect your opinion as well. But unfair? No. Not at all. And neither is naming names. I am not saying anything that isn't a fact. These companies are sticking it to us and I say we refuse to take it by acting with our pocket books. That's all.

 

[DoDad]

In all the years I've been ponding I've never returned a item that I bought online other than for repair or it didn't work in the first place.
Most of the problems are with customers that order before they check to see if it will work in their situation.let's say a person buys a sequence 3600seq pump and lets say he hooks it up and it doesn't have enough head head pressure.
All the customer thought was the pump will put out 3600 gph.and it will if no plumbing is hooked up. Once you put pipe and fittings on it that all changes. The length of pipe, fittings,reducers and how high you need to pump must all be figured by someone.
Who might that be. If you gave all that info to the dealer they could have figured it out for you. So if you made the decision to buy the pump and it didn't work for you who's to blame?
Should the dealer restock a used pump?
The manufacturer won't take it back because it works the way it's supposed to.
So what now?

 

[DoDad]

Just give me a hint of what you would be returning and why?

You say "It is very unfair to post a request on the forum recommending that we do so as well." Say what? Very unfair? I'm sorry but I don't understand. It is not only not unfair, it is exactly what this country was founded on. The absolute right to protest. And protest publicly. Of course make your own decisions. And I respect your opinion as well. But unfair? No. Not at all. And neither is naming names. I am not saying anything that isn't a fact. These companies are sticking it to us and I say we refuse to take it by acting with our pocket books. That's all.

 

[D&RW]

I am pretty thorough in my research. And well educated w/ 2 bachelors degrees and a graduate degree. Not brilliant, but not stupid either. there are three factors any consumer has to contend with:

1) the claims of the manufacturer (accurate and honest or BS)
2) the unstated factors they know about, but you don't
2) the "fit" of the product to the criteria of the proposed use (beyond or outside of usual design specs, etc.)

Example. Little Giant sells an out of pond pump advertised as very quiet. I think they even add some kind of augumentation statement, i.e. as a whisper or quietest on the market, etc. when I got it it had a whine I could hear in my front yard! Quiet. Not even close to quiet.
Another example is a pump from another company rated at 6500 GPH. when I hooked it up I didn't have a flowmeter yet, but I guarantee you it wasn't 6500. It was hardly noticably different than the current pump rated at 4700. So yes, I returned both of them.

A third example is the second Aqua Art bottom drain I've bought from them that the original design of my expansion called for. As the expansion continued and grew, it turned out I didn't need a second bottom drain. But, I did need a concrete coating the same company sold. So I asked to ship back, at my expense of course, the bottom drain in exchange for the concrete coating and maybe some other product to make up the difference in price. Their response was to charge me 25% restocking fee for the return.

You want to accept that. You go ahead. I'm not going to.

 

[koikeepr]

D&RW, I think what folks here are trying to tell you is that if you would have mentioned some of this stuff to us, we may have been able to counsel you BEFORE you made the purchase.

For example, I would have told you to run (not walk) from a Little Giant pump. They are notorious for failing and not very long lasting. You can definitely google the myriad of bad reviews on that.

Based on your size pond, the single aqua art retro bottom drain would have been perfectly suitable for you. It does say very clearly on the site that the large AA drain is good for up to 10,000 gallons.

That oxygen testing thingee---we would have totally told you not to have wasted your cash.

We really, really, really want to help you. But to do that, you've got to clue us into your plans so we can help guide you BEFORE you spend the dough. We might have been able to have saved you those restocking fees.

And, of course, if you want to just go ahead and make the purchases, you are more than free to--after all, it is YOUR money. But you can't ask us to then ban a web pond retail shop after the fact, because they don't want to return the stuff we likely would have advised you not to buy from the beginning had we heard about it.

I don't want to see anyone lose money, and I am certainly not a fan of restocking fees. So, I do my hardest to do all my due diligence up front.

D&RW, I really want you to be successful at this ponding hobby and love it. I confess I am not fully clear on what your overall plan is for your filtration, etc. You've not clued us in on the full plan--we just hear about the single things you buy (or return) here and there. How can we help you now so that you don't have to return anything later, but get a good system together up front? We are here to assist you. Do you have a full sketch of your pond and it's systems that we can see?

Please don't think for a minute that we're somehow lambasting you. We will all never agree on everything, and will certainly tussle a bit on our opinions. When there is more than one way to filet a fish, it's par for the course.

 

[CliffandJoann]

You say "It is very unfair to post a request on the forum recommending that we do so as well." Say what? Very unfair? I'm sorry but I don't understand. It is not only not unfair, it is exactly what this country was founded on. The absolute right to protest. And protest publicly. Of course make your own decisions. And I respect your opinion as well. But unfair? No. Not at all. And neither is naming names. I am not saying anything that isn't a fact. These companies are sticking it to us and I say we refuse to take it by acting with our pocket books. That's all.

Has this company required you to purchase these items? Did they force you to buy their pumps or whatever wares they are selling?
Did you suffer damages? Because their company has a re-stocking charge, you are so upset they you want to call a national boycott
against them? You think you have the right to protest because a company has a policy, that in no way effects you, because you have
the right not to purchase from them, thus the re-stocking charge hasn't even effected you. It's called free enterprise, you don't like the rules,
shop in another store.

They do not have a capacitive audience, there are many pond supply outfits both brick and mortar and on-line. They have their own set of rules
and you have the free will to open your pocket book and spend money with them or not.
Looks to me that you should find better reasons to call for a public boycott, when you haven't suffered any damages. However, the pond
company you are boycotting and calling for other forum members to do so as well, could very well suffer damages and...
That is the part you need to be cautious about.

sidebar: The reason they have restocking charges is because of customers like you.
Do your research and order the right product, and take responsibility for your choice.
Nobody wants to take any responsibility for their choices.

 

[D&RW]

sidebar: The reason they have restocking charges is because of customers like you.

Hey, I apologize. I see this thread was ill advised. I regret posting it in that format. I stand by my assessment, but did not mean to generate friction or negative energy. It would have been better to be less demonstrative and post something like:

Is anybody else getting tired of the increasing use and amount of restocking fees? If so, maybe we could influence this trend by shopping with companies that do not have them or only up to 10%.

The fact is I do research and read a lot. And ask questions and advice. But not always as you can see with the Little Giant Pump thing.

I admit my style is iterative and experimental. I like to try things and be able to change designs as a project progresses. Thus the second AquaArt Bottom Drain--the shelf of the expansion in its original configuration was not going to receive the same water flow as the main pond so I planned to put a bottom drain there as well. However, I redesigned it so it will receive better flow so no longer think it is essential, albeit I still think it would help.

Besides that, I don't always agree with a vendor's assessment of their product. I have informally tested the suction of the AquaArt bottom drain and it works pretty well, but in my experiment only out to about 18 inches, at most and that was with tissue paper. I think the claim of it covering a 10,000 gallon pond at the very least assumes a perfect design to facilitate its function, e.g. a huge oval bowl with sloping sides down to a center low point. And at the worst is like many many advertised claims--exaggerated.

Anyway, I'm going to leave this thread and again apologize for asking or encouraging anything. Each to their own. Everybody have a great Christmas and a super New Year.

 

[DoDad]

I find with any bottom drain you need circulation in the pond. I always suggest putting tpr's in a pond for this reason. Even the best will not reach out very far without tpr's or a aerated dome.

 

[koikeepr]

No bottom drain can cover an entire pond floor. Most true BD's suck in an area around it of 24-36 inches depending on it's size. I think your experiment is about right with the AA retro drain, and I think it's about 18-24" as well. This is where using strategically placed TPR's or forces of water aimed at pushing debris toward your BD is important. You get stuff within that 18-24" area by means of your waterfall, well-placed air stones on the pond bottom, and TPR's to get water heading in the direction of your BD. If you've got good movement of water and debris isn't allowed to be stuck in any particular area, then that the BD will eventually get your suspended goop since your pump is pulling in all the water through the BD a turnover rate of hopefully around once per every 1 1/2-2 hours.

Your goal is to move water about in such a way that the debris will eventually land in that 18" radius. A BD is not designed to suck from afar (if it could, it would have too much suction and would likely grab your fish and everything else)...it's made to pull the stuff that is brought to it. I even sit a air disc right on top of the Aqua Art itself.

I hope that makes sense, and makes you less worried about that 18" area. I think that's spot on.

I think you'll be happy with that AA drain when you see what it can do. I love mine.

 

[koikeepr]

you beat me to the chase DoDad. I was too busy typing and you were hitting send. LOL!

 

[DoDad]

If installed correctly a Bottom Drain can clean about 10 foot dia,

 

[DoDad]

Different ways to get crap to a bottom drain.

 

[CliffandJoann]

Did anyone mention that the entire pond floor should be slanted toward the BD?...
That is very much like a shower floor is installed. When we add water (water changes) we lay the hose
on the pond floor and the force of the water makes everything
flow towards the drain. We move the hose around to get as much
area coverage as possible, and let it run for 10 to 15 minutes.
A lot of the muck then naturally flows toward the BD and gets sucked in.

Note: we don't have to add de-clor in our area.

 

[koikeepr]

If installed correctly a Bottom Drain can clean about 10 foot dia,

Right. 100% correct. But if you do not have water movement (TPR's, aeration, etc) in tandem with the BD, it's three feet at best. With proper aeration and water push in the right areas to keep dead areas flowing, etc., you will easily get the 10 foot span. If you do nothing but the bottom drain, the best you can hope is the three or four feet immediately around the BD.

Joann, you are right about slanting toward the BD to help crap slide toward it. Definitely right.

 

[D&RW]

sidebar: The reason they have restocking charges is because of customers like you.

By the way, this is a mean spirited, judgmental and unfounded statement. You don't know me from Adam and you make such a nasty comment. Shame on you. I tried to be nice about it, taking responsibility for my part and taking the high road. But nobody seems to have noticed how nasty that comment was. If that's going to be allowed without sanction, this may not be the place for me. I don't want to participate in a forum where people can make comments like that without everyone else saying, "hey, now."