Relining and Rebuilding a huge pond

[GBBUDD]

Hi @pondvideoaddict ,

That is one very cool project! I think what @GBBUDD was getting at is that, because of the curvature going around the Gazebo, you'll have a lot of dead zones where water isn't being pushed / pulled enough to circulate well back to the bog. You would have much better circulation if you have the water going under the gazebo (which I realize creates a whole different set of problems).

You may be able to solve part of the problem of poor circulation via jets or waterfalls that push water out of the various covers, but you could also chose to pull water into those corners, by creating an intake bay at the end of each of them.

The main thing is to keep the water flowing; visualize the pond as a deeper zone in a flowing river. You can get this flow by either pushing water or pulling it. But which you chose should take into account the direction of the prevailing wind. I have a much smaller pond--about 6.5 meters in length, not counting another 2 meters for the intake bay--and even that small an area benefits a great deal from having the intake bay positioned downwind of the rest of the pond. By the end of the day, the wind has pushed most of the floating debris out of any dead zones and over to the intake bay, where the increased flow can pull it right in. So you'll get better results by pulling water downwind, rather than pushing it against the wind.

Happy ponding!
-Yael

PS. @GBBUDD and @combatwombat will have some very good advice on construction and pump choice. If you need help translating @GBBUDD's posts into English, just reach out to some here! ;-)

I like your pond pic added to your posts , I may have to steal that idea

 

[pondvideoaddict]

California Waterscapes has done a lot of very large ecosystem ponds in S. California. They’re an Aquascape contractor. I shutter to think of the cost,

That is who I was able to consult with on the project. They suggested the intake bay to be placed where I originally placed it and the 3 pumps. They made me a materials list and I purchased quite a bit of things from them in return. And yes, I'm sure the cost if they were to do the project would be 100's of thousands. They also suggested EPDM for rock placement but my contractor has a plan with the RPE and just that saves me 30K (hopefully)

 

[pondvideoaddict]

Ok so i'm by far hands on in creating and building things, building in type not so much.

That pond is going to be a very expensive project. Particularly if you do it placing stone, which in my book is a must. You will want to do this right the first time . I would strongly suggest your reach out to the big boys. I see this is not just an average property but an estate. Your project is pretty close to the size of Aqualand "the pond out front of Aquascapes. "

I do not know the contractors in your area if this is something they can handle but , I would recommend Aquascapes, Modern design aquascapes, Atlantis water gardens , there are others but on a project that size they would probably reach out to each other and create a team.
This should truly be engineered. your intake bay is probably best using a concrete casket.

I would also recommend insurance , that being underlayment both under the liner and inside the liner under the rock . And if you have wildlife like prairie dogs gophers etc I would also entertain the idea of a 3 foot concrete blanket around the perimeter.

The rock wall an the concrete wall will have to be reworked . the liner could be brought up over them . But would then need a new retaining wall or boulders etc.

Beautiful property . Have you tried finding the leak i would start with the 125 foot waterfall. I assume your talking a stream coming down a hill side and not 125 foot actual drop. if it is the drop you could loose thousands of gallons to evaporation and splashing alone but id bet either way that maybe the problem area

Okay thank you for the advice, I will do underlayment and yes all the walls are going to have to be re-worked a little As for finding the leak, I think the previous owners who inherited it - just filled the pond to sell it (which is an insane amount of water). I think it might've been almost empty for a long time before that because the liner deteriorated. Originally, I think it was 8 feet deep and lined - now there is 4 feet of sludge which doesn't help anything...

I have reached out to many of them and the price is insane - so I'm doing it with the knowledge I've collected, a little consultation with California Waterscapes, lots of forum advice and reaching out to pond people and my contractor who I trust. There is so much information online and the build is not rocket science. I'm having professionals install the liner and my contractor rock it. Like I said, the only thing I haven't fully figured out is the pumps (but I could just do what they told me - which is buy those pumps)... I'm going to give it one more day investigating air lift pumps and then decide which way to go on that. I actually may have gotten really lucky and found three Intelli Flo 3 Variable speed pumps (the newests ones) for 1900/each! They are supposed to be incredibly energy efficient.

 

[OdliDPrincess]

With the bog on the other side of the pond in a prime viewing location, there's nothing to consider; instead, use that energy to make a waterfall, especially given the amount of water you'll have. The forum on the internet says pond depth plus pond length + pond height plus a foot, however that is for easy designs. The more square the pond, the easier it is to figure out and keep secure. However, unless you already know how to seam or melt fuse the liner, the less welding you have to do, the better, so consider how a square or rectangle can cover the area pus the drops in the walls plus 4 feet on each side would be my proposal approximately 8 feet total for slack.

 

[GBBUDD]

got cha. your right it is not rocket science i too am a builder and it is not overly complicated it has it's perks but it can be worked out easy enough . And we will help out . MY FIRST QUESTION IS why the need for three variable speed pumps i can understand one maybe two of them but with a pond that size . at least one of them can run full tilt and should run full speed all the time.

 

[Lisak1]

No advice - just wanted to say WHAT A BEAUTIFUL POND! The palette you have to work with is incredible... like a dream for many of us. But also you've learned the down side - the bigger the pond, the bigger the price tag!

Good luck to you! Lots of great minds here that can talk you through any challenges you might encounter along the way.

 

[pondvideoaddict]

got cha. your right it is not rocket science i too am a builder and it is not overly complicated it has it's perks but it can be worked out easy enough . And we will help out . MY FIRST QUESTION IS why the need for three variable speed pumps i can understand one maybe two of them but with a pond that size . at least one of them can run full tilt and should run full speed all the time.

Why 3 pumps? That I do not know. That is just what California Waterscapes suggested. Three 3 HP pumps. I'm assuming between the 3 it pumps 100,000 gph... That is why I came on the forum - to see what other people thought because I kinda thought it could be overkill too. Especially considering that I could just do airlift pumps instead. So what do you all think I should do? Also, GBUDD where were you referring to when you said I should move the intake bay (if I were to make two?)

 

[GBBUDD]

The issue i have with your drawing is the bog / filter empties into the pond and is going to get pulled into the intake bay . It won't have a chance to mix with the main body of water until it is pulled into a pump and spread to the opposite end of the pond. If the bog is moved to the red rectangle as the water empties into the pond its now mixing in the large area as its drawn toward the intake on the opposite side of the pond.
The baby blue would be your current

The yellow arrows are return jets to keep the depth of the pond moving around.

The pink is a peninsula closing off the area a little to help direct debris into the intake and not up into the area top right. While it is still rather wide, it could be closed off when a fish entered making it a possibility catching a sick fish or an aggressive male.

The gray areas at the bottom of the bog and you deck is shallow 6" areas this will take the water as it falls out from the bog and direct it along the surface forcing current toward the intake

The more i think about it you are going to have to re-due the stone wall or the logs and that actually could be a better place for the bog . forcing the filtered water across the pond Being in the desert it will allow for some tropical plants and flowers closer to the home. but it does not allow for viewing a waterfall coming out of the bog from the house. But it would be visible from the gazebo or the beach.

There is another benefit to having two bogs and that is if one ever needs cleaning pulling out severe roots etc . You'll have second bog filter that is able to continue to do the job in a lessened over all capacity but is unaffected biologically.

The in take bay works best when it has a good draw and a shallow entrance and narrow entrance .

If those pumps are pulling a 100,000 gph that's some serious current 8 Large aquablocks only hold 256 gallons of water if all three pumps are in this area that's pulling water through those blocks emptying them 390 times in a minute . It would be my guess that you could loose fish in this area and depending on how you terminate the stone it could also be a problem for swimmers, OR KIDS wading in.

I would lean toward double the amount of aquablocks and i'd also make them the LARGE blocks . This will make for more surface area. Thus lessening the suction pulling debris into the rocks where they have less of a chance to be chewed up by the pumps making for waste to convert to algae. And also eliminates potential fish and kids being a problem.

 

[combatwombat]

I’d definitely go two small bogs vs one big one. Better circulation and more redundancy/safety factors.

I think you really need some clarity on the pumping plan. Maybe talk to California Waterscapes again about why they specified 100,000 GPH and the pumps they did. That’s going to be $1,000+/month electricity bill where you are if they’re all running continuously.

390 times in a minute

390 per hour. Your point still stands though. That’s way too much.

 

[pondvideoaddict]

Okay thank you two! I looked over my notes from the phone call and he did say something different than what was on the material list. He had also suggested two bogs but when I asked could I just do one (because of less labor and aqua blox etc), he had said that was fine. He had suggested two 25 ft by 8 ft wide by 3 ft deep wetland filters with 1 1/2 hP pump pushing 8,000 gallons 24/7 and then one or two pumps to push water by the willow 1/12 horse power jandy pump with adjustable flow. I think if I put the additional bog where GBUDD suggested. I think I could get away with 1 pumps in each bogs and the just one pump in the intake bay? Does the one pump in the intake bay run the jets or do I need another pump as well for the jets? If you think this set up would work, how powerful a pump do I need in the intake bay? The only thing about adding the extra bog is all those extra aqua blox I'm going to need to buy now? I had originally bought 52 for the bog (even though I had thought I would've needed much more but that was what was on the materials list). I suppose since I'm buying more aquablox, I should buy more for the intake bay to make it deeper as GBUDD had suggested as well.

 

[combatwombat]

I think I could get away with 1 pumps in each bogs and the just one pump in the intake bay?

Where are the bog pumps drawing from? Normally, you'd place all your pumps (or pump intakes if external pumps) in the intake bay and send the output wherever you need it. So, 3 pumps in the intake bay, each feeding a different feature.

The only thing about adding the extra bog is all those extra aqua blox I'm going to need to buy now?

Why do you need more aquablox? Isn't the idea one large bog vs. two small ones? Wouldn't you just be redistributing them?

I should buy more for the intake bay to make it deeper as GBUDD had suggested as well.

A very general rule of thumb is to have as much water storage in an intake bay as you have gallons/min pumping through it. If you had 100,000 GPH, then you'd need about 1650 gallons of water space. I personally think you could reduce that by at least 50% and still be fine. Surface area for infiltration in the intake bay is more important than depth. The more you have, the longer it takes to clog.

 

[GBBUDD]

a larger pond / the more volume there is the less you need to filter per

8 large aqua blocks = 32 gallons per block x 8 = 256 gallons 390

deeper as GBUDD had suggested as well.

not so much deeper but i gues wider and or longer. The IDEA is to have more square footage where water is pulled down through the rocks. or another way to say it is make the floor of the intake bay all blocks then cover that with 2 to 3 inch stone. with a couple 6 to 8 here and there for it to look real and not just screened rock.
but if only one intake bay then all three pumps will have to go in there. Now you were mentioning depth in your intake bay. External pumps PUSH water they TERRIBLE at PULLING WATER. you need to keep the pumps at pretty much the same elevation as the water line. if you were to place them 4 feet above the water line the pumps have a hard time priming and thus working. That is with the exception of self priming pumps but that gets expensive quick. Your looking at pumps much larger than I have, I use one 12000 GPH .
I could be wrong with a pump that strong , you'll need to check it out.

Are you planning on adding fish?

will you be swimming in it a lot?

If yes to both you'll want large amounts of surface area in your bog or bogs for bacteria to grow. if no to both you wont need to turn over the pond. { push all the water through the filters or bog.} as often. thus needing less water flow and pumps.

if you throw a dozen koi in that pond in one year . by year 5 I bet you'd have closer to 100.

Now you have to remember the bog is not like a man made filter your just setting the stage for mother nature to grow and establish it's self. this can take a year or more.

I run a 9 x 20 bog and a 6x10 peastone bog with thirty fish waters crystal clear

The principle to a bog is to pump the water into the pit with the stone and slow down the flow so bacteria has a chance to absorb ammonias and nitrites converting them into less harmful gasses and to pull the floating solids out, Clear water being the result. I however do not push 8000 gallons through the bog at best it's 6,000 then another 2,000 to the peastone bog and 4 thousand to my return jets. This is all from the one 12000 gph pump. Starting with a three inch pipe and reducing as it splits.
That's a bit of a science if done wrong can cost you in lack of performance and gph. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if you were starting with 4"

You had mentioned a 125' water fall ? pictures? that could require its own pump.

The bog I drew would get water from the intake bay and seeing as it has a retaining wall that looks like its close to three feet tall . thats perfect for a bog . pump water to the bottom of the bog and as it fills the bog it overflows making waterfalls. your killing two birds with one stone you have to re-due the retaining wall and if a bog is added there the rest of the bog can be just in the soil no frame no other walls needed.

 

[pondvideoaddict]

Where are the bog pumps drawing from? Normally, you'd place all your pumps (or pump intakes if external pumps) in the intake bay and send the output wherever you need it. So, 3 pumps in the intake bay, each feeding a different feature.



Why do you need more aquablox? Isn't the idea one large bog vs. two small ones? Wouldn't you just be redistributing them?



A very general rule of thumb is to have as much water storage in an intake bay as you have gallons/min pumping through it. If you had 100,000 GPH, then you'd need about 1650 gallons of water space. I personally think you could reduce that by at least 50% and still be fine. Surface area for infiltration in the intake bay is more important than depth. The more you have, the longer it takes to clog.I

I just thought I would need more aquablox based on the recommended wetland filter system requirement on aquascape. If I am doing two wetland filters that are 12 by 25 then I would need

8 centipedes

2 snorkels

128 aquablox

(2) 8,000 gph pump or 1 16,000 gph pump that can go to both of them?

I see why you are asking that question but I guess I need to clarify with waterscapes because what he told me on the phone doesn't add up to the materials list that they provided for me.

He had said I only need 7 aquablox for the intake bay but I'm going to make it 8 to make it easier of course. I'm open to making it wider or longer than 6 by 8 though.

To answer GBUDD, I hope to add fish but I don't think it will be swam in a lot.

They had said to use 3" pipe. See I didn't know you could run all that off of one pump - as I said pumps are a major blind spot in this build for me.

The waterfall is luckily taken care of - before the pond drained on it's own - the waterfall was working perfectly fine with it's own pump... I'm not going to mess with it.

There isn't currently a retaining wall in the bog there, I just wrote like that so that my contractor knows to fill it in there with dirt for about two feet to separate the bog and the rest of the pond. This has been really challenging because we are really working backwards on the design... The pond right now is a bowl and at it's deepest 7 feet... probably by the bog it's 5 ft but they are starting on bring the rocks that I have on the site down on Monday and building the french drain so I have to figure it all out pretty soon

​

 

[GBBUDD]

The waterfall is luckily taken care of - before the pond drained on it's own - the waterfall was working perfectly fine with it's own pump... I'm not going to mess with it.

if the water fall is tied into the pond? . it dumps into the pond under the deck? or is it separate from the pond

 

[pondvideoaddict]

if the water fall is tied into the pond? . it dumps into the pond under the deck? or is it separate from the pond

yes it's tied into the pond and dumped under the deck.