Question re: Tapping into 2" pvc line for fountain ...

[barryian]

Since Copper is present in all water, my question would be: Do you know what the current Copper level is in your pond? Would adding a very small amount (remember, we are talking micro-grams for toxicity) increase your present level to a level of concern? Best to be safe!
FYI- 1/4"of Copper tubing will leach, maybe a wee amount, but since Copper accumulates I would have a problem with any addition to the water column.

It almost seems ridiculous that I now just ordered a copper test kit to add to my collection .... Feel like a kid when I had a chemistry set with the 3-4 doors that opened. I've searched the internet and have yet to find a pond fountain made with brass, poly or anything but a copper tube. I'm wondering if we're being over cautious and also wondering if I can't just slip a 3/8" tubing
right down through the copper tubing. I now have the T and all the parts, just hesitancy to run it when I have it hooked up until I have definitive answers.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

It almost seems ridiculous that I now just ordered a copper test kit to add to my collection .... Feel like a kid when I had a chemistry set with the 3-4 doors that opened. I've searched the internet and have yet to find a pond fountain made with brass, poly or anything but a copper tube. I'm wondering if we're being over cautious and also wondering if I can't just slip a 3/8" tubing
right down through the copper tubing. I now have the T and all the parts, just hesitancy to run it when I have it hooked up until I have definitive answers.

Because of my own experience and because of all of the research documents that I have read concerning Copper and aquatic life, I am admittedly overcautious.
That being said, all Heavy metals are toxic with Copper being near the top of the list and, as such, any chance of Copper toxicity should not be minimized.
If testing of a pond's water proves to show less than 15 micrograms/L of Copper then a Copper tubed fountain may not pose an immediate problem. As with all water quality issues or questions......always test first.

 

[barryian]

@Meyer Jordan ... Thanks for the heads up! I much appreciate it! That's what makes this forum great !!! I purchased an inexpensive API test kit to begin. I'm not running it until I first know the current Cu level if any but isn't it the copper sulfate that is the killer? If so, is that what the kits test for? What type of Cu kit do you have as take a look at the attached pic. The measurements of all the kits Iv'e seen are measured from 0 to 4 mg/L or parts per million (ppm) of copper? Copper what? That makes no sense as .10 is lethal. Am I reading this wrong? What is the difference between testing for copper, copper sulphate or cupramine, even though I'm not treating with cupramine? Thanks again!

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Cupramine is Copper sulphate in a proprietary form. Copper sulphate disassociates in water into Cooper and Sulfur ions. So basically, any Copper test will be looking for reactions with Copper ions present in the water column.
The toxicity of Copper begins long before the lethal level is reached, which is set by some sources at 540 micrograms/L (0.54 mg/L) 24 hr. LC50. 0.10 mg/L is not lethal but it will have toxic effects with prolonged exposure.
And that is the real problem with Copper (and all of the Heavy Metals), it is not biodegradable and it is bio-culmulative. It behaves much like Salt. Once it is in a water column it will stay with no reduction of effects until physically removed.
If the API test revealed any reading other than a definite Zero level, I would be cautious.
Truly accurate results for testing low levels of Copper can only be obtained through the use of a photometer, colorimeter, or one of the better probes on the market.....and these are costly.

 

[barryian]

Cupramine is Copper sulphate in a proprietary form. Copper sulphate disassociates in water into Cooper and Sulfur ions. So basically, any Copper test will be looking for reactions with Copper ions present in the water column.
The toxicity of Copper begins long before the lethal level is reached, which is set by some sources at 540 micrograms/L (0.54 mg/L) 24 hr. LC50. 0.10 mg/L is not lethal but it will have toxic effects with prolonged exposure.
And that is the real problem with Copper (and all of the Heavy Metals), it is not biodegradable and it is bio-culmulative. It behaves much like Salt. Once it is in a water column it will stay with no reduction of effects until physically removed.
If the API test revealed any reading other than a definite Zero level, I would be cautious.
Truly accurate results for testing low levels of Copper can only be obtained through the use of a photometer, colorimeter, or one of the better probes on the market.....and these are costly.

Thanks. Not sure what road to take. I've been doing changes all these years and the water runs through copper piping. I did read in re: to the fountain that at a pH over 8, ( mine is a constant 8.4 ) the copper will barely leach if at all and at an acid pH, it will leach out fast. Interesting .... I'll run a tubing thru the 1/2" copper if possible to be safe. I'll like a baseline and really would like to use the fountain if possible.

Meters are basically $300 - $400 which is out of the question. Any opinion on this by Hanna?
http://hannainst.com/hi747-copper-lr.html#spec

 

[Lisak1]

I think your idea of running plastic tubing through the copper makes sense - avoid the possibility of a problem all together. Unless I'm missing something in the equation...

And the tubing we used was 1 1/4 inch I believe - flexible but stiff enough to allow us to feed it up through the base of the bowl.

 

[morewater]

It almost seems ridiculous that I now just ordered a copper test kit to add to my collection .... Feel like a kid when I had a chemistry set with the 3-4 doors that opened. I've searched the internet and have yet to find a pond fountain made with brass, poly or anything but a copper tube. I'm wondering if we're being over cautious and also wondering if I can't just slip a 3/8" tubing
right down through the copper tubing. I now have the T and all the parts, just hesitancy to run it when I have it hooked up until I have definitive answers.

Now, be careful when you're testing for copper that a penny doesn't fall out of your pocket and into the pond, or else you'll have to test all over again. LOL

 

[barryian]

I think your idea of running plastic tubing through the copper makes sense - avoid the possibility of a problem all together. Unless I'm missing something in the equation...

And the tubing we used was 1 1/4 inch I believe - flexible but stiff enough to allow us to feed it up through the base of the bowl.

So you have this running in the koi pond and it did have copper originally which you lined with the pvc? Yeah, that's the road I'm taking. Have all the things from Home Depot. They had all the fitting down to the brass. Mine is 1/2" so going to need something smaller than that. I haven't got the tubing and end piece yet but will do the plumbing today!
Might be a mini stream ...lol ... Thanks

 

[barryian]

Now, be careful when you're testing for copper that a penny doesn't fall out of your pocket and into the pond, or else you'll have to test all over again. LOL

Good one... lol ... I think this is getting too hairline technical but I learned something from Meyer I never knew. Searching the net, I found so many copper scenarios.
One large pond where visitors attend and pay to roam the park have a large beautiful koi pond.
Naturally, everyone throws pennies, nickels, dimes & 1/4's in for the good luck. Everyday, they have to go around and clean all the coins out. The joke was that people are more cognizant of the dangers to the fish so they have less revenue. Fish from video seem unscathed.

 

[Lisak1]

So you have this running in the koi pond and it did have copper originally which you lined with the pvc?

Yes, it runs in our bog (which flows into the pond) but no - no copper. It's a cement fountain base with a bowl. So the tubing runs up through the base, into the bowl where it fills the bowl and then spills over into the bog. So we aren't looking for a lot of pressure but we could definitely get it if we wanted - I could have a geyser shooting up out of that bowl! We just dial it down so it just bubbles.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

The current Lead issue in Flint Michigan is a good analogy. Lead, Copper and the other Heavy Metals are what can be called 'slow killers'. Being that they are all Bio-accumulates, prolonged ingestion of small amounts results in health issues after hours, months, or even years depending on the levels ingested.
Fish may not exhibit any signs of toxicity at low levels (a few pennies in the water) immediately, but as the Copper accumulates health issues begin to manifest.
Speaking of pennies, fountains that are used as 'wishing wells' rarely have algae.

 

[barryian]

The current Lead issue in Flint Michigan is a good analogy. Lead, Copper and the other Heavy Metals are what can be called 'slow killers'. Being that they are all Bio-accumulates, prolonged ingestion of small amounts results in health issues after hours, months, or even years depending on the levels ingested.
Fish may not exhibit any signs of toxicity at low levels (a few pennies in the water) immediately, but as the Copper accumulates health issues begin to manifest.
Speaking of pennies, fountains that are used as 'wishing wells' rarely have algae.

Our home is all 3/4" copper lines. Now we have copper and a pex mix. You would think water changes over all the 24 years of owning pond would have created a problem. I would know as it wouldn't likely affect one fish but many if not all depending on the level. Never had a major multi fish problem.

Meyer, can you explain what you wrote re: the test kit. It seems you must have a ) reading if it's measuring from 0 - 4ppm.
If you had any visible reading at all, the fish would be dead. I saw a kit, about $75. It read in ppb rather than ppm. Curiosity has me now to see that baseline.

 

[Tula]

In speaking with our local water plant manager, he explained that the problem in Flint, was that the anti corrosive "stuff" wasn't added to the water, so the lead in the pipes leached out. Apparently the "stuff" has calcium and magnesium in it.

I don't know if the same holds true for copper, but this is what I was recently told, about lead, which is often used in soldering plumbing pipes. Might be a possible explanation why those of us with copper pipes, haven't had toxic level of copper, build up in our ponds.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

The API kit has measurement levels of 0.00, 0.25, 0.50, 1.0, 2.0, and 4.0. 0.00 is the ideal reading. 0.25 is acceptable, but not for prolonged periods.
Copper in water is bound by any organic matter: fish, plants, algae, zoo-plankton, etc. This is another advantage of having diversity in a pond. The Copper is spread around. But even here levels and exposure time can overwhelm aquatic organisms.
Using Morewater's Penny--one copper penny is not likely to cause a toxic effect. Several copper pennies over an extended period of time may create toxic levels. A lot of Copper pennies for a short period of time may create toxic levels. Toxicity of Copper depends on existing levels and exposure time.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

In speaking with our local water plant manager, he explained that the problem in Flint, was that the anti corrosive "stuff" wasn't added to the water, so the lead in the pipes leached out. Apparently the "stuff" has calcium and magnesium in it.

I don't know if the same holds true for copper, but this is what I was recently told, about lead, which is often used in soldering plumbing pipes. Might be a possible explanation why those of us with copper pipes, haven't had toxic level of copper, build up in our ponds.

But do you know how close to toxic levels you do have in your pond?