Question on water change

[Gemma]

Wouldn't improved filtration have been a better solution? Or maybe managing the environment better (i.e. fewer fish, less food, etc.) .

Sure that would be a "better solution", but not an easier choice for everyone to make!
If regular water changes, allow me to keep a few extra fish, or feeding a bit more, why wouldn't I choose that?
Because it's stressful for the fish? I don't know that for a fact, I'm only reading it on here!

I've done water changes all through Spring and Summer this year, and I have not seen any signs of stress in my fish!
It is very hard for me to go back to not doing water changes, when my fish show nothing but improvement since I've started doing it!
I have well water if that even matters!

 

[Mucky_Waters]

I'm not anti-water change... just super lazy. If I don't have to do it, I'm not going to. ........ We top off,

I'm super lazy too, probably lazier than you, that's why I implement the trickle change system where I don't even have to even worry about the burden of topping off the water in my pond.

just don't tell me that I have to or my pond will become a dead zone.

No problem, but don't tell me that water changes are inherently stressful. Agreed?

 

[Mucky_Waters]

And your goldfish in a bowl illustration has already been accepted

Just curious what you mean by "has already been accepted" ?

 

[IPA]

Sure that would be a "better solution", but not an easier choice for everyone to make!
If regular water changes, allow me to keep a few extra fish, or feeding a bit more, why wouldn't I choose that?
Because it's stressful for the fish? I don't know that for a fact, I'm only reading it on here!

I've done water changes all through Spring and Summer this year, and I have not seen any signs of stress in my fish!
It is very hard for me to go back to not doing water changes, when my fish show nothing but improvement since I've started doing it!
I have well water if that even matters!

I wanted a koi toilet, a holding tank with sludge removal engineering, and then more filtration past that because it was so technical and you could even research municipal water treatment plants and see those principles applied on the microcosm. I wanted it to be "low" maintenance which probably meant doing a lot of technical things like flipping switches and turning valves.
I had never heard of a bog filter but someone told me about it and then it only took the first sentence and I was sold; the plants remove the fish waste and the fish waste feeds the plants. Too simple of an idea, how come in all of my research on Koi ponds did I not come across this. Eventually I found @addy1 's bog thread and followed this forum for a little while before joining. So happy that I did, everyone is helpful and friendly and polite.

Back on subject, on one extreme is the goldfish bowl but on the other isn't a singular system. Is it a bog filter or a massively technical water filtration system that puts small municipalities to shame? Some people here do fine without doing water changes with calculated, or designed on purpose for the reason of waste removal, plantings, but that isn't to say that the systems aren't flushed and cleaned from time to time. Juxtaposed to the bog is something like @audioenvy 's system, and am curious as to his take on water changes, are they simply preformed by filter flushes or does he also change an addition amount of water?
And all of that doesn't mean an entirely closed loop system doesn't work but by practice we likely all do some form of water change. For example, I have calculated that I have this many plants in my bog and can safely keep my fish and don't need to do water changes on a regular basis but will need to top it off and flush the system once or twice a year, or not, as well as scoop out debris with a net, and test my water every once in a while to make sure I have it (my plan of action) right.

 

[Angel]

I had never heard of a bog filter but someone told me about it and then it only took the first sentence and I was sold; the plants remove the fish waste and the fish waste feeds the plants. Too simple of an idea, how come in all of my research on Koi ponds did I not come across this.

I love my bog filter first time in 8 years i have clear water. bog went in this year. learned about it from youtubes "The Pond Digger" @sissy will recommend his vids ands advice. she is mentioned in a few ask the pond digger series

 

[Meyer Jordan]

All around the world people manage to keep fish, mostly Goldfish and Bettas, in small bowls for years and years without the use of any kind of pump or filtering system at all. How do they do this......? Yes you guessed it, they totally rely on Water Changes.

And they don't live very long either even with water changes. Stress related maybe?

http://pets.thenest.com/goldfish-need-tank-filtered-water-12107.html

This is exactly what happens all the time in nature (think a river flowing past a shoal of fish).

Hardly an example to explain the benefits of water changes. River water is generally fairly consistent in quality and chemical composition for miles. Most changes that do occur are gradual. In those cases where the chemistry of the water may be noticeably altered, like downstream of a mine, research has shown that those fish that reside upstream of this effluent release avoid any part of the river downstream of the effluent release.

We seem to be wandering away from the main point of discussion. That being--
Are periodic recurring water changes really necessary in maintaining the overall environmental health of a pond?
In the case of eco-ponds, science says no.

 

[audioenvy]

Juxtaposed to the bog is something like @audioenvy 's system, and am curious as to his take on water changes, are they simply preformed by filter flushes or does he also change an addition amount of water?

Given my fish load (fifteen koi between 15 and 30 inches long) and the lack of plants I will be using two biological filters (a bead filter fed by the skimmer pump) and a bakki-style shower filled with ceramic media above the waterfall fed by the bottom drains. Even without water changes, the water is extremely clear and when the sun is out I can definitely tell whether or not a penny on the bottom is heads or tails

Because my pond is recently finished, right now I'm letting the filters cycle and trying to avoid doing major water changes that would slow that down. Once that's completed I honestly don't know how much water I'll have to change beyond filter flushing. I know most dedicated koi pond owners do routine water changes. I'll probably target 10% or less per week just as part of routine filter flushing (allowing more water to flush than is needed)--but I won't know for sure until possibly next spring.

Photo added to illustrate the total lack of plants LOL.

 

[MitchM]

...
How can this be done over and over again without stressing the fish by so many repeated water changes.....? ..

I'm pretty skeptical about that claim.
The truth is that we don't know when a water change has negatively affected a fish. Gills, kidneys and the slime coat could very well be damaged as a result of the water change. We don't know. Many, many fish die for unknown reasons, and especially new pond keepers are not aware of the dangers.

"Prime" and "Stress Coat" products are best sellers because of the inherent danger of water changes.


.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

And they don't live very long either even with water changes. Stress related maybe?

http://pets.thenest.com/goldfish-need-tank-filtered-water-12107.html

Meyer there is a plethora of articles out there supporting regular water changes in ponds and aquariums and almost nothing to the contrary, I personally have restrained myself from posting any links to these articles because I know if I did your argument would simple be that "it is not scientific or scholarly article therefore it carries no weight". But I have also noticed you have no qualms about posting these same sort of links when you think they support your stance. Having said that, the article you linked actually supports frequent water changes for good fish health, "If adding a filter is simply not an option, you must perform water changes frequently".

We seem to be wandering away from the main point of discussion. That being--
Are periodic recurring water changes really necessary in maintaining the overall environmental health of a pond?

Again, you are twisting things here, the original gist of the thread here that Gemma started was the proper procedure for doing water changes, not whether to do them or not. Go back and read her original post, Mitch was the one who originally wandered away from that discussion with his loaded question, funny you didn't try and get it back on course way back then, I wonder why?

 

[Mucky_Waters]

I'm pretty skeptical about that claim.
The truth is that we don't know when a water change has negatively affected a fish. Gills, kidneys and the slime coat could very well be damaged as a result of the water change. We don't know. Many, many fish die for unknown reasons, and especially new pond keepers are not aware of the dangers.

"Prime" and "Stress Coat" products are best sellers because of the inherent danger of water changes.


.

Mitch have you ever kept a goldfish in a bowl like that? I have, and so have many people. Sure, neglect to do those regular water changes and that fish will suffer and possibly even die, but if you take care to do regular water changes the fish can live just fine for years and years.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Meyer there is a plethora of articles out there supporting regular water changes in ponds and aquariums and almost nothing to the contrary,

The Walstad method for aquariums comes to mind. Once tank is established, water changes are not needed.

But I have also noticed you have no qualms about posting these same sort of links when you think they support your stance.

I have not posted many links to scientific research because there is none on this subject. I have and can post articles from the aquaculture industry that supports operating a system with no water changes (RAS and Zero Water Exchange)

Having said that, the article you linked actually supports frequent water changes for good fish health, "If adding a filter is simply not an option, you must perform water changes frequently".

Correct. the caveat in this statement is expressed in the opening phrase "If adding a filter is not an option". In other words, if a filter is in use, frequent water changes become unnecessary..

 

[MitchM]

Mitch have you ever kept a goldfish in a bowl like that? I have, and so have many people. Sure, neglect to do those regular water changes and that fish will suffer and possibly even die, but if you take care to do regular water changes the fish can live just fine for years and years.

No, I haven't.
It's beyond me why pet/pond stores don't educate their customers about the nitrogen cycle and sell test kits along with ammonia. I think fish owners would make much better decisions about fish care and water quality.
Way too many old wives tales about under what conditions water changes are appropriate.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Correct. the caveat in this statement is expressed in the opening phrase "If adding a filter is not an option". In other words, if a filter is in use, frequent water changes become unnecessary..

Nowhere in the article you linked does it say that. To the contrary it say "regardless of filter design. Also, even with a filter installed, it is necessary to perform weekly water changes to maintain cleanliness and pH balance. For tanks or bowls that hold less than 10 gallons, change about 25 percent of the water by removing and replacing it. For tanks larger than 10 gallons, change about 15 percent of the water each week."
Did you even read the article?

Maybe you should take your own advice and get this discussion back on track.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Nowhere in the article you linked does it say that. To the contrary it say "regardless of filter design. Also, even with a filter installed, it is necessary to perform weekly water changes to maintain cleanliness and pH balance. For tanks or bowls that hold less than 10 gallons, change about 25 percent of the water by removing and replacing it. For tanks larger than 10 gallons, change about 15 percent of the water each week."
Did you even read the article?

Maybe you should take your own advice and get this discussion back on track.

Which article are you referring to?

 

[MitchM]

... Go back and read her original post, Mitch was the one who originally wandered away from that discussion with his loaded question, ...

I'm not allowed to talk politics here, I need the drama.
Sorry.