Question about water quality (and bubbles on pond) stats and pics includsd

[Tula]

Trickle (Shower) filters will only remove Nitrate if they are anaerobic.Nitrate readings are often at zero when there is heavy algae growth. The algae is using it as fast as it is produced. Take a water sample at the outflow of the biofilter and test that for Nitrate. Odds are you will get a reading.

What I read about was shower filters ( crashing water , as opposed to trickling ) leading to low to no, nitrate readings, due to ammonia being off gassed...thus not converting to nitrates, then nitrates.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Don't know where you read this but is not telling the entire story. Yes, Ammonia can be off-gassed to a point, but only under certain conditions.
This from KoiPhen:
"In water "ammonia" is in equilibrium with the ionic state "ammonium" (NH4+); the combined total of ammonia and ammonium is often referred to as Total Ammonia Nitrogen (TAN). At the pH levels typically encountered in ponds, most of the TAN is in the ammonium form, which cannot be directly off-gassed because doing so would create a steep charge imbalance. While a trivial amount of ammonia may off-gas, this is usually insignificant. In the waste-water treatment field, direct off-gassing of ammonia (a.k.a. Ammonia Stripping) is accomplished by drastically raising the pH of the effluent to force more of the TAN into the ammonia (uncharged) form, which can be off-gassed."
The filter that you are referring to is probably a Bakki shower which will off-gas a small amount of Ammonia before it can be oxidized to Nitrate, but this is only a very small portion of the total Ammonia in the water.The rest is oxidized to Nitrate by typical bacterial action. These devices, however, can remove a large amount of Nitrate if the proper filter media is employed. This filter media must be able, through its porosity,to support anaerobic bacteria (as I stated earlier) in sufficient numbers. These bacteria will reduce the Nitrate level in the water.

 

[budgenator]

What I read about was shower filters ( crashing water , as opposed to trickling ) leading to low to no, nitrate readings, due to ammonia being off gassed...thus not converting to nitrates, then nitrates.

Seems far fetched to me, the ammonia may reduce to a point where what is out-gassed by the water to the atmosphere, is going to be in equilibrium with what is absorbed by the water from the surrounding atmosphere.

 

[Tula]

Seems far fetched to me, the ammonia may reduce to a point where what is out-gassed by the water to the atmosphere, is going to be in equilibrium with what is absorbed by the water from the surrounding atmosphere.

I'll try to find the article and post it here. I'm not reciting it as fact, just reporting what I've read.


http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?100349-New-Test-Tank

Here's the link to the thread discussing it. It's a pretty long read, but interesting.

 

[budgenator]

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?100349-New-Test-Tank
Here's the link to the thread discussing it. It's a pretty long read, but interesting.

Oh you are cruel, really interesting thread that's 18 pages long!

 

[MitchM]

Oh you are cruel, really interesting thread that's 18 pages long!

 

[MitchM]

If I was an AOB (Ammonia Oxidizing Bacteria), I would want as much ammonia as I could oxidize, and if there wasn't enough bacteria like me, I would just produce more of myself.
I could see it as a temporary imbalance, but that's it.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Oh you are cruel, really interesting thread that's 18 pages long!

Yes, and it is mostly about Koi exercise tanks (interesting considering that carp prefer slow moving rivers). Very little said about Ammonia off-gassing.
There are no scientific studies that support any sizeable off-gassing of Ammonia, but many, many about anaerobic oxidation of Nitrate to gas (N2) and Nitrous oxide and Nitric oxide.

 

[Tula]

I've had a couple friends tell me they believe their shower filters, keep there nitrate readings low / zero. I was interested, so read this thread awhile back. I thought the thrust of the thread was how shower filters addressed the nitrification process, although, lots of other topics were discussed as well.

So, obviously this isn't a scientific study, but I found it interesting, so decided to share

 

[budgenator]

There are no scientific studies that support any sizeable off-gassing of Ammonia,

I found this at the top of a google search for "ammonia stripping tower" https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe...ackDesc=Results page&MaximumPages=1&ZyEntry=1
It talks about Ammonia stripping, but talks about factors like forced air through the stripping tower, pH of 10.8 - 11.5, not really conditions associated with koi pond and shower filters. So I'd still be skeptical of ammonia stripping being more than an insignificant side effect.
I have a lot of respect for birdman and even happily use one of his designs in my own pond. In this case He is assuming that because his filter reduced ammonia faster than nitrItes increased on filter start up, it supported the premise of ammonia stripping. I noticed that he is using pumice as a filter media, I know pumice is an extremely porous, complex composite of many chemicals and it's composition is variable for volcano to volcano. It's highly plausible that the pumice absorbed, adsorbed or even chemical bound the initial surge of nitrites.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I found this at the top of a google search for "ammonia stripping tower" https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe/P10099PH.txt?ZyActionD=ZyDocument&Client=EPA&Index=2000 Thru 2005&Docs=&Query=&Time=&EndTime=&SearchMethod=1&TocRestrict=n&Toc=&TocEntry=&QField=&QFieldYear=&QFieldMonth=&QFieldDay=&UseQField=&IntQFieldOp=0&ExtQFieldOp=0&XmlQuery=&File=D:\ZYFILES\INDEX DATA\00THRU05\TXT\00000025\P10099PH.txt&User=ANONYMOUS&Password=anonymous&SortMethod=h|-&MaximumDocuments=1&FuzzyDegree=0&ImageQuality=r150g4/r150g4/x150y150g16/i850&Display=hpfr&DefSeekPage=x&SearchBack=ZyActionL&Back=ZyActionS&BackDesc=Results page&MaximumPages=1&ZyEntry=1
It talks about Ammonia stripping, but talks about factors like forced air through the stripping tower, pH of 10.8 - 11.5, not really conditions associated with koi pond and shower filters. So I'd still be skeptical of ammonia stripping being more than an insignificant side effect.
I have a lot of respect for birdman and even happily use one of his designs in my own pond. In this case He is assuming that because his filter reduced ammonia faster than nitrItes increased on filter start up, it supported the premise of ammonia stripping. I noticed that he is using pumice as a filter media, I know pumice is an extremely porous, complex composite of many chemicals and it's composition is variable for volcano to volcano. It's highly plausible that the pumice absorbed, adsorbed or even chemical bound the initial surge of nitrites.

Thanks for posting that link.
It clearly states that pH of 10.8 - 11.5 is required to convert the Ammonia to a form that will off-gas. It also states that for Ammonia levels of less than 10mg/L biological methods are a better choice.
Bakki showers and trickle towers when properly constructed using the appropriate media do indeed reduce Nitrate level but through biological activity not off-gassing. Birdman mentions this in one of his posts in the linked KoiPhen thread.
These devices are one of the few options that the owner of a true dedicated Koi pond (no plants) has in controlling Nitrate level.