Question about bottom drain to gravity fed settlement filter vs. a pump with pond pump with strainer

[Waterbug]

Disagree with more sucking power with the BD hooked directly to the pump. If pump would be located in the same position no matter where it's sucking from there should be no difference in flow

Good point.

 

[randythawkins]

I think Sacrimento Koi has some nice pics/diagrams on how to setup a pond & might have better pics on what to do & not to do. They sell the larger canister filters among other things......

thanks viggen. I appreciate all of the thoughts *and* the link to Sacrimento Koi. I looked at their Design Plans page and it did a good job of putting the pieces to together - things that have been stirring but difficult for me to get a complete visual image.

 

[randythawkins]

OK guys, here is more information on my project. I have started a blog for this pond build and it contains a bunch of pictures at the bottom. Go look at them and then read my comments below. It is at http://thehawkinsfamilypond.blogspot.com/

- I plan on digging out the middle to a depth of about 4'
- The inside area is about 8' in one direction and 9' in the other...
- ...giving me roughly 1,500 gal
- On the "top side" (where the distance from surround ground to top of flowerbed wall is smallest) I want to build out a small waterfall which will feed into that end of the pond.
- On the "lower side" (where the distance from the surrounding ground to the top of the flowerbed is greatest) is where I plan to have the skimmer and build out around/under that an enclosed area for the pump and pressurized canister filter (was my thoughts up until I started this thread).
- A BD 1/3 of the distance out from the skimmer would feed under the flowerbed wall and into the pump/filter system.

Goals/desires
1. I want to keep the pump/filter enclosure as small as possible for aesthetics purposes. I believe I could move the pump/filter units closer to the corner of the nearby patio wall but that would mean a big box of 'stuff' right in the middle of the viewing area between the patio and the pond.
2. The space between the pond and the house/patio is going to be landscaped and finished off as a seating area and will cohesively join the pond with the patio. Because of this, I want to keep any and all equipment (pumps/filters/etc) away from this area if at all possible.
3. I could place equipment around the corner of the house but is that a good idea given the height of that area compared to the pond level?
4. I want the final product to be approachable from all sides (yea, I know its a circle and has only 2 sides - inside and outside) and for a person to be able to walk around the entire thing with minimal obstacles (e.g. pumps and filters)
5. The option of rebuild or expanding the size is out of scope for this project.

Hopefully you can see whey I keep saying that I have minimal space for the equipment - its an aesthetics thing. Maybe my words of "have minimal space" is incorrect...maybe I should say "I need to keep everything as small and compact as possible". Since this pond does not back up to a fence or building it makes it hard to hide the equipment *and* I want viewing from all places.

Having a large settlement tank, large enough to handle 1,500 gal, would look force me to have a this large enclosed boxed up area at the bottom of the pond which would get in the way of viewing and walk paths.

Those are my goals/desires. Reality is a separate thing but, I hope, it will be as close to my goals/desires as possible.

Would love to hear thoughts. Thanks,
Randy

 

[whiskey]

Hi Randy

Thanks for sharing your dream pond......plus the photos are great.

My main thought is 1] what kind of fish do you both wish to keep

2] the number of fish.

3] 1,500 gallons is not a large pond, so will not require big exspensive filter systems.

4] a presurrised system can be buried just leaving the the top showing or cover with a poly rock.

I had before i started my new pond [ ongoing ] two15,000 fishmate filters running two ponds keeping both really clear on a volume of 19,000 gallons

the new pond just a bit bigger.......4,650 approx gallons....mainly for koi, which produce lots of ....muck.

hence bottom drain and three home made filters hopefully to keep it clean.

anyhow keep it coming, will always try to help.

my dream in avatar and my build so far can be found on forum..".whiskeys new pond project"

whiskey

 

[Waterbug]

Filters are related to how much food you plan to feed, which in turn can be related to kinds and number of fish. So you can save some space right off by keeping a fish load that doesn't require any fish load.

Make the 1,500 pond the settlement chamber. Anything smaller would not work as well and would take up space and cash.

 

[randythawkins]

My main thought is 1] what kind of fish do you both wish to keep

2] the number of fish.

That was the one thing I left out of notes - the number of fish...sorry about that. From what I've read my 1,500 pond is right at the minimal limit for Koi and I've decided that I would rather have Koi over goldfish. So, I am planning on Koi and not many of them. I'll probably get several small ones at first and go from there with, when they are a couple of years old and bigger, having maybe just 2 or 3 I guess.

The biggest reason I lean towards koi over goldfish is that I've read that they, koi, are better at being trained to be used to people and even hand fed. To me, that is more fun than a bunch of goldfish that won't have that interaction.

I plan on digging to a depth of 4 to 5 feet. To me that is a poor ratio to surface area so I am debating getting a DB which would have the air diffuser hoping that that, along with the waterfall and the TPR(s), will help keep the lower water circulated and oxygenated well. I am struggling with the cost of the BDs which have the diffuser - WOW!!! those baby's are expensive for what they are. Maybe I just come up with a separate diffuser of some kind.

Back to the BD-to-the-pump question...what are the options for a small/cheep/simple filter to prevent the leaves and muck from making their way into the filter? Maybe a plastic tote, set at appropriate water-level height, gravity fed with some kind of media mats (cheep furnace filters?) to catch the leaves?

Thanks,
Randy

 

[Waterbug]

The biggest reason I lean towards koi over goldfish is that I've read that they, koi, are better at being trained to be used to people and even hand fed. To me, that is more fun than a bunch of goldfish that won't have that interaction.

I agree 100% with interaction being important. It's the difference between pets and dinner. However, I kept Koi and Goldfish in the same pond once and I think the Goldfish are way more personal. The Koi couldn't seem to see the food, more of a just start chomping at the surface and hope to get some food. Large Goldfish kind of did that too. The Koi just seem a bit more mindless about the whole thing. Goldfish seem to target food pellets and seem to watch me too, like eye contact. I'll sure hear it from the Koi lovers.

As far as training I think the Goldfish learn just as fast, maybe faster. I think it has more to do with the number. A couple of fish are hard to train. Safety in numbers, each wants to be first so more fish just get closer faster.

I like Koi for their size and colors.

Maybe I just come up with a separate diffuser of some kind.

Lot cheaper. Set it next to the drain and it'll work just as well, sets up the same current. For the actual drain I use regular 3" or 4" ABS or PVC, no bolting flange for me. You can dig the trench, lay the liner over the trench and lay the pipe in the trench so the pipe is inside the liner. Run the pipe up the pond side and exit through the liner maybe 12" below the water surface. Then you can use a hose clamp to seal the liner against the pipe, I think it's called a pipe boot, but there's other things called that too. Easy and cheap. And if you ever have a leak the most you'll loose is 12" of water, fish live, and a heck of a lot easier to fix. Although I've actually heard of either of these leaking, but I'm sure they can.

Back to the BD-to-the-pump question...what are the options for a small/cheep/simple filter to prevent the leaves and muck from making their way into the filter? Maybe a plastic tote, set at appropriate water-level height, gravity fed with some kind of media mats (cheep furnace filters?) to catch the leaves?

Sieve filter. Nothing else is even close. Easy and cheap to make, just a bit of careful planning needed. Doesn't stop muck, most filters don't. But the sieve can keep stuff from becoming muck.

 

[Waterbug]

The drain in the trench does require a bit of mortar to form a good drain opening. I mortar rock over the entire pond so for me the trench works well.

 

[lee.williams]

hi im going to put a bottom drain in my new pond and was thinking if to u 90% bends or try not to make them so sharp or does it not matter so much ?

 

[randythawkins]

I like Koi for their size and colors.

I kinda prefer the looks of koi over goldfish also. That's not to say that I dislike goldfish. Is it realistically OK to have some of both?

Lot cheaper. Set it next to the drain and it'll work just as well, sets up the same current. For the actual drain I use regular 3" or 4" ABS or PVC, no bolting flange for me. You can dig the trench, lay the liner over the trench and lay the pipe in the trench so the pipe is inside the liner. Run the pipe up the pond side and exit through the liner maybe 12" below the water surface. Then you can use a hose clamp to seal the liner against the pipe, I think it's called a pipe boot, but there's other things called that too. Easy and cheap. And if you ever have a leak the most you'll loose is 12" of water, fish live, and a heck of a lot easier to fix. Although I've actually heard of either of these leaking, but I'm sure they can.

By placing the pipe in the trenched liner you create a rut where muck and such can settle. I know its unrealistic for there to never be muck and the desire is to remove all of the muck...I'm assuming that what would gather in that trench would be acceptable?

Do you have pics of your "hose pipe clamping liner to the pipe" connection? Seems to me it would be difficult to have a completely flat layer of liner when trying to form it to the pipe's shape.

Sieve filter. Nothing else is even close. Easy and cheap to make, just a bit of careful planning needed. Doesn't stop muck, most filters don't. But the sieve can keep stuff from becoming muck.

Any URLs to some good and detailed DIY sieve filters?

 

[Waterbug]

By placing the pipe in the trenched liner you create a rut where muck and such can settle. I know its unrealistic for there to never be muck and the desire is to remove all of the muck...I'm assuming that what would gather in that trench would be acceptable?

You pour mortar over the pipe. Brings the trench level with the liner.

Do you have pics of your "hose pipe clamping liner to the pipe" connection? Seems to me it would be difficult to have a completely flat layer of liner when trying to form it to the pipe's shape.

The pipe boot thing was created by Greg Bickal. Google "Bickal pipe boot" for more info.

Any URLs to some good and detailed DIY sieve filters?

I haven't seen any. Really just a screen on the pond overflow. The commercial ones, and some DIY, have a floating weir which is really a problem. But the floating weir is only need on ponds with a fluctuating water level. So designing so the pond overflows makes the sieve easy.

There's a recent thread here by Whiskey on his pond build and he's making a sieve.

 

[whiskey]

Hi Randy

I made mine from a 50 gallon loft water tank, i purchased three off ebay cheaply, also the micron stainless steel mesh [300 grade] off ebay.

As to a design thats down to you, went off the idea of a float/wier just something else that may go wrong [imo], so putting in a overfow pipe with return to sieve and pipe to pond [that sorts that out] and having a mains supply to small tank in workshop with ballcock set at pond level, so hopefully this will aid water changes/top ups/trickle feeds and water ban people from knowing to much information on my activities.

Should you require help on sieve like mine i will take you through each stage,bearing in mind my inserts are timber and will need sealing [i used rubber paint] recommended, good stuff.

The over flow in last photo just incase muck level clogs filter wool , main water drops through micron mesh.

 

[viggen]

This is a pic of my DIY vortex. Koi toilet is in the bottom of the pod then the 4in pipe T's off to two 2in pipes that enter this stock tank, I think it's a 150 gallon tank. I drilled one hole for a drain & another hole that brings the water to the pump/filter. Pond is a work in progress...

 

[viggen]

this shows some of the plumbing. T valve so I can adjust flow from the skimmer box or bottom drain....

 

[randythawkins]

...the 4in pipe T's off to two 2in pipes that enter this stock tank

Why T the 4" into 2 2" pipes before entering the tank?