Question about bottom drain and gravity and skimmer

[Miami Al]

I'm a heretic here. I have two separate filtration systems. My skimmer runs into a tank (a 7 gallon bucket that's the settlement container), and over to the bog system.

Essentially, skimmer flows "gravity fed" into bucket, is pumped to the bogs (it's 3 bogs in resin pots, it's prettier that way).

Then the bottom drain runs into a second bucket. That runs into a mechanical/bio filter and then into my spillover (it's a vase filter, not a waterfall, but same concept).

I like having two redundant systems. My skimmer/bog keeps the water quality just fine. I added the mechanical filter w/ UV (OASE Biosmart 1600) and some chemical filter (activated carbon) because I wanted more water clarity. The fish were perfectly happy with the bogs.

This forum loves the bogs. The bogs are utterly fantastic, because if setup reasonably well, they are near zero maintenance. I just filled with marginal plants from a nearby nursery and they look gorgeous. I love them.

I personally think that having a single pump means a single point of failure. If my water lever drops and the skimmer goes dry, my system runs just fine off the bottom drain system. Both my systems have enough filtration and pump strength to clean the entire pond. When something goes wrong, my fish don't suffer.

Bog and Bio-filter do the same job. Bio-filter is "more efficient" in that it uses less space for the same amount of filtration. The Bog is less maintenance in that it generally takes care of itself.

You have two pumps. You have a skimmer and a bottom drain. There is no reason not to have both run.


My Build out Thread

 

[Lisak1]

Personally not a fan of UV filtration. I know some people swear by it, but I wonder what other single celled organisms are getting eliminated at the same time.

 

[Miami Al]

I don’t disagree. But I bought a $100 filter and spent $40 on plumbing and my pond water is about as clear as my pool water now, and that’s really slick!

 

[GBBUDD]

`don't fix what's not broke right. if its working stick with it

 

[fergus]

I'm a heretic here. I have two separate filtration systems. My skimmer runs into a tank (a 7 gallon bucket that's the settlement container), and over to the bog system.

Essentially, skimmer flows "gravity fed" into bucket, is pumped to the bogs (it's 3 bogs in resin pots, it's prettier that way).

Then the bottom drain runs into a second bucket. That runs into a mechanical/bio filter and then into my spillover (it's a vase filter, not a waterfall, but same concept).

I like having two redundant systems. My skimmer/bog keeps the water quality just fine. I added the mechanical filter w/ UV (OASE Biosmart 1600) and some chemical filter (activated carbon) because I wanted more water clarity. The fish were perfectly happy with the bogs.

This forum loves the bogs. The bogs are utterly fantastic, because if setup reasonably well, they are near zero maintenance. I just filled with marginal plants from a nearby nursery and they look gorgeous. I love them.

I personally think that having a single pump means a single point of failure. If my water lever drops and the skimmer goes dry, my system runs just fine off the bottom drain system. Both my systems have enough filtration and pump strength to clean the entire pond. When something goes wrong, my fish don't suffer.

Bog and Bio-filter do the same job. Bio-filter is "more efficient" in that it uses less space for the same amount of filtration. The Bog is less maintenance in that it generally takes care of itself.

You have two pumps. You have a skimmer and a bottom drain. There is no reason not to have both run.

This is what I had planned to do originally.

Unfortunately, because my drain pipe's diameter is only an inch (has to be that way, won't bother going into it), I found that the pump empties the "bucket" chamber faster than gravity will fill it up. A smaller pump would probably work, but I stupidly already bought these two before thinking/knowing about gravity feed.

So I have to rely on draw from the skimmer as well. Obviously, in any scenario, if the pond level drops below the skimmer, then the chamber will empty again.

 

[Miami Al]

`don't fix what's not broke right. if its working stick with it

Everything looks good when it's new. Let's see how it stabilizes out. But right now, I'm pretty happy with the entire setup. I have a few things to check on over the next day or so to make sure I don't have leaks. Added a PVC->Hosebib on the filter's "cleanout port" to not need to unscrew and get crap on my hands. It's been a bunch of minor changes to make it all look good.

This is what I had planned to do originally.

Unfortunately, because my drain pipe's diameter is only an inch (has to be that way, won't bother going into it), I found that the pump empties the "bucket" chamber faster than gravity will fill it up. A smaller pump would probably work, but I stupidly already bought these two before thinking/knowing about gravity feed.

So I have to rely on draw from the skimmer as well. Obviously, in any scenario, if the pond level drops below the skimmer, then the chamber will empty again.

not necessarily. You could split the water coming out (PVC Tee with valves to adjust what goes where).

One path goes off to the rest of the filter, the other comes back to the bucket, I’d consider routing it through the UV here.

Other option, add a sidewall bulkhead with a 1 inch pipe to pull more water into the bucket.

FYI my pumps are cheap, around $50 each because they are in the water.

 

[fergus]

Other option, add a sidewall bulkhead with a 1 inch pipe to pull more water into the bucket.

Yeah, I was just typing that: "Should I just chuck another line into the pond which the drain pump can draw from?"

This one though:

One path goes off to the rest of the filter, the other comes back to the bucket, I’d consider routing it through the UV here.

...is better, I think... Solves the UV placement question anyway. Although I might put the tee after the biofilter so the water will be clearer...?

Thanks, this is all super helpful.
The last photo of your pond you posted looks great. My setup is very similar to yours so I really hope that I can make something equally efficient/appealing.

 

[Miami Al]

It's real easy to overthink this... I certainly have.

There are two basic approaches to filtration.

1. The "natural" method (i.e. bog) where you let the same natural process that are in streams and lakes work. This is amazingly simple to work and maintain, because the natural process converts waste to useful materials and therefore doesn't need much cleanout, the larger and more natural, the less cleanout, it is basically a complete system.

2. The "commercial" method (i.e. mechanical, biological, and chemical filters). They get a lot more filtration per square foot of surface area or cubic foot of air. They can get the water as polished as you want. They are painful to maintain, because your filtration systems suck things out of the water, you need to get the crap out, it's an incomplete system.

When you "clean" the filters, you're part of the filtration. The filters get the junk out of the water, YOU get the junk out of the filters and therefore the system.

I highly recommend you buy a smaller pump. The feedback system will work, and might have some side effects, but it certainly adds complexity. The advantage: the biological filter will get partially sterilized water. This will make it easier to populate with good bacteria because it won't be pure UV. However it adds complexity. A smaller pump is a cheap investment compared to everything else related with this hobby.

That said, commercial filtration is: Mechanical -> UV -> Biological -> Chemical
Your UV system won't work if the water is filled with crap that blocks it. The biological filter will work more efficiently with sterilized waste than living waste. You can polish/clean the water with carbon or other chemical after that.

Bog system is a self maintaining biological filter. Put some mechanical filtration first to stop big stuff, then let the bog do the work. The bog will get things clear.

If you want a singular system, super clean water, and Bog + Commercial, I'd recommend:
Mechanical (super coarse) -> Bog -> Mechanical (finer) -> UV -> Chemical

UV is optional, chemical is optional. But I like letting the two systems run in parallel.

 

[GBBUDD]

A smaller pump is a cheap investment

You dont feed with a smaller pump so much as you should just split the pipe with a ball valve reduce the flow. and push that water to a circulating jet . that would be my take

 

[GBBUDD]

It's real easy to overthink this... I certainly have.

There are two basic approaches to filtration.

1. The "natural" method (i.e. bog) where you let the same natural process that are in streams and lakes work. This is amazingly simple to work and maintain, because the natural process converts waste to useful materials and therefore doesn't need much cleanout, the larger and more natural, the less cleanout, it is basically a complete system.

2. The "commercial" method (i.e. mechanical, biological, and chemical filters). They get a lot more filtration per square foot of surface area or cubic foot of air. They can get the water as polished as you want. They are painful to maintain, because your filtration systems suck things out of the water, you need to get the crap out, it's an incomplete system.

When you "clean" the filters, you're part of the filtration. The filters get the junk out of the water, YOU get the junk out of the filters and therefore the system.

I highly recommend you buy a smaller pump. The feedback system will work, and might have some side effects, but it certainly adds complexity. The advantage: the biological filter will get partially sterilized water. This will make it easier to populate with good bacteria because it won't be pure UV. However it adds complexity. A smaller pump is a cheap investment compared to everything else related with this hobby.

That said, commercial filtration is: Mechanical -> UV -> Biological -> Chemical
Your UV system won't work if the water is filled with crap that blocks it. The biological filter will work more efficiently with sterilized waste than living waste. You can polish/clean the water with carbon or other chemical after that.

Bog system is a self maintaining biological filter. Put some mechanical filtration first to stop big stuff, then let the bog do the work. The bog will get things clear.

If you want a singular system, super clean water, and Bog + Commercial, I'd recommend:
Mechanical (super coarse) -> Bog -> Mechanical (finer) -> UV -> Chemical

UV is optional, chemical is optional. But I like letting the two systems run in parallel.

You got my head spinning

 

[GBBUDD]

THANK GOD , you have a small pond if it was my size , you'd be looking at being committed

 

[Miami Al]

You dont feed with a smaller pump so much as you should just split the pipe with a ball valve reduce the flow. and push that water to a circulating jet . that would be my take

Certainly less energy efficient but will also work.

 

[GBBUDD]

Certainly less energy efficient but will also work.

Not less efficient but more as you eliminate a second pump the main flow still goes through the full sized pipe your just branching off of it to feed the u.v

 

[Miami Al]

Not less efficient but more as you eliminate a second pump the main flow still goes through the full sized pipe your just branching off of it to feed the u.v

The biggest issue seems to be that his bottom drain pipe can't pull enough water.

 

[GBBUDD]

A 3 INCH line under pressure will push approximately 20 psi and 18,000 gph if it was just a gravity fed+
drain its 140 gallons in a minute . or 8000gph if, i remember correctly your pond was 300 gallons ?. the three inch line unde3r the pond is way over sized and will provide any scenario you'd like