Pump size for small pond/bog filter/waterfall (is it doable?)

[GBBUDD]

And the first time you power goes out all your bacteria will dry out and you'll start from square one all over again

The clean outs aren't necessary in my eyes it's so small

 

[Sugar]

Hi Sugar. So I’m just wondering is your pond location constrained by size? My very first pond was a kit with a liner that held 150 gallons and to me that would be a starting size. Are you concerned about winter weather at all? If you get ice and snow you should make your pond at least 3 ft deep. Good luck with your pond!

Hi CometKeith. We were talking about possibly building a bigger pond (EPDM liner, we could fit something like 10x10ft or so) in the future, but not this year. Then we got the small preformed liner at garage sale one week ago, so we decided to make a smaller hole before we decide whether we want to go bigger and deeper.
I have four freestanding 35 gal maccourts ponds for my water lilies (my 6th season of water gardening), I overwinter them in garage and my goldfish overwinter in sunroom in one of the 35 gal ponds.

 

[Criscar]

And the first time you power goes out all your bacteria will dry out and you'll start from square one all over again

For Sugar, since her main pond is very small compared to the bog, I can see how that could be an issue. PVC check valves are pretty easy to come by and would be very simple to add in especially if they end up switching from tubing to hard PVC as I had suggested above.

I don't have a check valve on either of my bogs, I guess I was assuming that given the amount of gravel and plants in the main part of my pond it would re-seed itself pretty quickly, plus, gravel doesn't dry out instantly, plant roots and stuff hold onto some moisture? Or not?

 

[Sugar]

Also, I just looked at what you wrote again and am confused as to how you plan to route the water out of the tub into the small preformed waterfall? Did you know maccourt makes a 20 gallon tub with a waterfall spillway built into it? You can get it from Home Depot and it would be infinitely simpler than trying to figure out some way of getting the water out of the tub and into the little 2 gallon waterfall form.

20 Gal. Spilway Plantainer Preformed Pond Liner

The water would go to waterfall through piece of flexible tube. So the pump pumps water to the bog through flexible tube which is attached to the bottom pipe and another flexible tube attached on the opposite side of the pipe takes the water up to waterfall. The other 2 ends of pipe will be capped.

 

[Criscar]

The water would go to waterfall through piece of flexible tube. So the pump pumps water to the bog through flexible tube which is attached to the bottom pipe and another flexible tube attached on the opposite side of the pipe takes the water up to waterfall. The other 2 ends of pipe will be capped.

I gotta admit, I'm really confused. In order for the bog to do its job the water needs to leave the pipe altogether and just rise freely through the gravel in the 20 gallon tub from the bottom until it gets to the top of the tub. How will you recapture it at that point? Sorry if I'm missing something obvious.

 

[brokensword]

The water would go to waterfall through piece of flexible tube. So the pump pumps water to the bog through flexible tube which is attached to the bottom pipe and another flexible tube attached on the opposite side of the pipe takes the water up to waterfall. The other 2 ends of pipe will be capped.

for the water to 'takes the water up to waterfall', you're going to need another pump. The way bogs work is your pump pushes water up from your pond and then to the bottom of your bog. The water rises and spills (usually) back into your pond. There is no transfer 'up' to a higher elevation. The spill from your bog can become a waterfall; most do this. The only way to get water from bog to waterfall without another pump is for your bog spill to be higher than your waterfall and let the bog spill water into the waterfall you're envisioning. What I have is two feeds from each pump (I have two pumps in my pond, and two waterfalls, too); one feed goes to the bog inlet and the other goes directly to a waterfall. I have a ball valve on each to regulate how much each gets.

What you're describing is a bit confusing. Can you provide a sketch of what you're trying to accomplish?

 

[Sugar]

I gotta admit, I'm really confused. In order for the bog to do its job the water needs to leave the pipe altogether and just rise freely through the gravel in the 20 gallon tub from the bottom until it gets to the top of the tub. How will you recapture it at that point? Sorry if I'm missing something obvious.

It looks like it won't work the way I envisioned it. That's why I asked here.

 

[Sugar]

for the water to 'takes the water up to waterfall', you're going to need another pump. The way bogs work is your pump pushes water up from your pond and then to the bottom of your bog. The water rises and spills (usually) back into your pond. There is no transfer 'up' to a higher elevation. The spill from your bog can become a waterfall; most do this. The only way to get water from bog to waterfall without another pump is for your bog spill to be higher than your waterfall and let the bog spill water into the waterfall you're envisioning. What I have is two feeds from each pump (I have two pumps in my pond, and two waterfalls, too); one feed goes to the bog inlet and the other goes directly to a waterfall. I have a ball valve on each to regulate how much each gets.

What you're describing is a bit confusing. Can you provide a sketch of what you're trying to accomplish?

I thought just one pump could handle both pumping water from pond to bog and again from bog to pond. Obviously not. Thanks for the clarification.
The sketch - just how the water goes to the piping and then to waterfall. I will probably re-think and go with the spillway like @Criscar suggested (thanks!)

 

[Criscar]

It looks like it won't work the way I envisioned it. That's why I asked here.

I had to rework my original idea 2-3 times to get it workable, it's definitely a learning process!

 

[brokensword]

I thought just one pump could handle both pumping water from pond to bog and again from bog to pond. Obviously not. Thanks for the clarification.
The sketch - just how the water goes to the piping and then to waterfall. I will probably re-think and go with the spillway like @Criscar suggested (thanks!)

If you're sending water via ONE feed from the pump in the pond TO a waterfall, AND another feed from the same pump to send water TO your bog, then yes, one pump will work. But you're saying; take the water from the pond, send to bog. THEN after the water is there, pump it to a waterfall. This requires two pumps, one in each position.

Even the sketch you have is a bit vague as I don't know if it shows your output intent for the bog. Below is what I'm describing as workable.

 

[Criscar]

Here are some photos that might help you see what some of these forms look like in operation.

1) the mockup of what ended up being the final arrangement (I didn't yet have the tub with the waterfall spillway at that time, the first one I ordered got lost in shipping). 300 gal rubbermaid stock tank, 20 gallon tub with spillway on right, 7.5 gallon pond form feeding into 2.5 gallon pond form on left in back.

2) Just to give you an idea of flow force, I have a single tetracare 550 gph pump running both mini-bogs, and the waterfall is still pretty forceful even with a splitter in place diverting 40% of the flow to the other bog and both filled to the brim with pea gravel, so I would be careful about using a 500 gph pump on a 50 gallon pond. You might have to throttle it back so hard it wouldn't be worth it.

3) this is what it looks like to use a uniseal to enter the pond form. Here I have flex tubing going through it but in hindsight that was a bad choice. Even in this small form with relatively little gravel weight on the tubing once inside the form, it still took a crazy amount of silicone to prevent this from leaking. I really like the uniseals, and they are so cheap and easy to use, but were definitely designed to work with hard PVC piping, not flex tubing.

4) Here is the adaptor from flex tubing to PVC, and then the PVC goes through the barrel into the tub via a uniseal that doesn't leak at all.

5) eventually the plants will finish growing in and hide the black sides and rim and the cinderblocks

6) water has been beautifully clear with this setup, hoping it stays that way.

 

[brokensword]

Here are some photos that might help you see what some of these forms look like in operation.

1) the mockup of what ended up being the final arrangement (I didn't yet have the tub with the waterfall spillway at that time, the first one I ordered got lost in shipping). 300 gal rubbermaid stock tank, 20 gallon tub with spillway on right, 7.5 gallon pond form feeding into 2.5 gallon pond form on left in back.

2) Just to give you an idea of flow force, I have a single tetracare 550 gph pump running both mini-bogs, and the waterfall is still pretty forceful even with a splitter in place diverting 40% of the flow to the other bog and both filled to the brim with pea gravel, so I would be careful about using a 500 gph pump on a 50 gallon pond. You might have to throttle it back so hard it wouldn't be worth it.

3) this is what it looks like to use a uniseal to enter the pond form. Here I have flex tubing going through it but in hindsight that was a bad choice. Even in this small form with relatively little gravel weight on the tubing once inside the form, it still took a crazy amount of silicone to prevent this from leaking. I really like the uniseals, and they are so cheap and easy to use, but were definitely designed to work with hard PVC piping, not flex tubing.

4) Here is the adaptor from flex tubing to PVC, and then the PVC goes through the barrel into the tub via a uniseal that doesn't leak at all.

5) eventually the plants will finish growing in and hide the black sides and rim and the cinderblocks

6) water has been beautifully clear with this setup, hoping it stays that way.

I'd swap out all the corrugated flex tubing I see in your pics; there's been many threads/posts here complaining about leaks/durability of that type of hose. Get yourself some flex pvc instead.

 

[GBBUDD]

You don't recapture it it should then fall out of the bog by means of a spill way and drop into the pond section

 

[GBBUDD]

I would not use a check valve that won't stop the water but it only will lesson it. A washer machine air vent works best its a reverse check valve instead of closing when the power goes out it opens allowing for when the pump and the pumps pressure turns back on to push the valve shut and hold it shut check valves need some volume in order to work and a small hose line just doesn't have the needed pressures to do the job.

 

[Criscar]

I'd swap out all the corrugated flex tubing I see in your pics; there's been many threads/posts here complaining about leaks/durability of that type of hose. Get yourself some flex pvc instead.

I will probably do that at some point, however, there is less than 2 feet of it that is actually out of the water, most of it is submerged, so I haven't been terribly worried about minor leaks. I saw the same posts but already had the flex tubing. Helpful advice for Sugar, though.