Please help with my second pond (I want to get it right this time!)

[Jeremy]

no i dont see that "aeration" tube doing much unless its fed via a venturi set up. a $5.00 air pump and a couple of stones would be far more effective.

Thank you again koiguy.

I have a few more questions, please.
What gph pump would be Ideal for a 3' wide x 3.5' deep filter?
and would a butyl liner be required, or would an EDPM liner suffice? (The liner will not be exposed to sunlight, but there may be some cinderblocks in the pond.)
What would be a good underlay? (maybe carpet padding?)

 

[j.w]

Carpet padding is cool, just make sure no staples or tacks in it.

EPDM is good liner and you can buy it at a roofing or construction business and is the same thing. Just rinse off before using w/ a hose. I've bought one of my liners from a roofing co. and the other from a place that constructs waterways and both fine. Don't let those pond selling liner places tell you that there are bad things in the roofing/construction ones. All made by the same place.

 

[Shdwdrgn]

I have heard of koi occasionally eating rosies, but I don't think they would try very hard as long as they were well fed.

I'm having a hard time with this statement... What exactly constitutes a 'well fed' koi? One that doesn't act like it is starving 5 seconds after you feed it? The only type of koi I know of that fit this definition are the 'dead' type...

 

[koiguy1969]

carpet and or pad as an underlayment? i havent used it myself, but.. i've heard good and bad on it, the bad is mostly mold, rot, and a mildewy smell
as i owned a carpet and floorcovering installation business for over 20 years..i can say it should be fine. most pads are a uerathane base now. even carpet is likely to be fine. it used to be that carpet backing was made of jute, basically oganic, like a loose weave canvas. now carpet backing is a synthetic latex and nylon mesh. the older jute backs were likely to bio degrade and fall apart and were susceptable to molding and rotting much quicker. EPDM liner will work but you may have a battle getting it to conform to that size of a round shape without a lot of wrinkles. if it were me and i really wanted to do the 'well' thing i might consider just forming it with concrete and sealing the inside with pond paint like pond armour, maybe fiberglass.
on the eating of rosie reds...i can only say that koi will eat their own offspring untill they hit an inch or so. once theyre recognised as fish, not some sort of larvae..their pretty safe...i ve got several videos posted here showing the fry at just over an inch swimming and feeding with the big guys!!

 

[CometKeith]

Hey Jeremy, you are totally right about the body mass of larger fish. Some koi clubs actually suggest much more water for larger fish than inches would dictate. Re the old well look. I tried that on my first pond with poor results. I used 3 or 4 rows of paving stones to give it an old well look and tucked the liner behind it so you could just see the pavers from the surface. The problem is they slowly disintegrated and in the process gave off lime and raised the ph. I could not get my ph below 9.5 with all the bricks in the water. Once I pulled them out my ph drooped to 7.5- 8. If you use a portland cement product it will not raise your ph so it depends on what you are planning on using.

 

[CountryEscape]

I have a question about the golden weather loaches. I looked them up and seems I have a gold "DoJo" loach. I remember the pet store telling me they used to be used to predict barometric pressure changes in the weather, thus "weather loaches". I only have one (and these are in my indoor aquarium) of the golden loaches, and I have 3 horseface loaches. I was wondering how cold of a pond could they do well in. One part of the website I looked at said they want water from 50-77 degrees, and another area said they were successfully raised in a pond in Canada.
If these loaches can be kept in the pond year round, what is the real benefit of them, other than they are bottom feeders and constantly picking at things on the bottom. They are VERY cool fish in an aquarium. My DoJo gold loach is on the move all the time. The horsefaces will burrow under the rock, very funny to watch them emerge, funnier when someone is visiting, and I say, "Oh, watch right there, a fish is going to come out of the rock." My large horseface is 5-6" long. I don't want to buy any and put them in the pond if they have to be removed. The gold ones would show up much better than the other colors. And, I have just the one golden loach, and he/she seems to be perfectly happy to be by itself, but I have noticed my 3 horseface loaches buddy up side by side.

 

[Waterbug]

Sorry waterbug, trickle towers may be more efficient, but I just can't think of a way to hide one.

There's many ways. Certainly no harder to hide than a submerged media filter. A TT converting the same amount of ammonia is smaller too.

Also, I would prefer a biomedium that's easier on the back while cleaning it than gravel.

One of the reasons a TT is efficient is because it's self cleaning, they don't need to be cleaned. And rocks are only one media choice, there are plastic bio balls.

If you have your heart set on submerged media might I suggest fluidized bed. Also much more efficient than a Skippy type filter and never has to be cleaned. Just as easy to build as a Skippy.

I remember when Skippy first came out, it was the hottest thing in filters. I think disco was hot then too. Lots of advances since then. Of course for recreating a Vintage Pond you can't beat a Skippy.

 

[j.w]

Waterbug I looked online to see a fluidized bed filter. What is the media that they use that expands inside the filter? Is there an easy version of how to make one of these?

 

[Jeremy]

Thanks JW, I think I will go with carpet padding.
Also, I seem to be finding about the same price for "fish safe" liner as I am for roofing liner, so I don't really see any reason to not get the "fish-safe" liner.

Thanks Koiguy, I have another question for you:
Based on your experience in carpet installation, what type of carpet pad or carpet would you recommend?

Cometkeith, I think I may have found a recipe for fish-safe, waterproof mortar
""Twelve years ago I discovered a secret formula that would render the mortar mix non porous and waterproof. It also makes regular mortar mix three times stronger. It is produced by adding one 45# bag of thinset (used to apply ceramic tile to a shower wall) to two bags of type S mortar mix. Once it cures, it becomes so dense, it is totally waterproof and will not leach any alkali after it cures (3 to 4 days). In addition, this mix is so strong in its holding ability that once it cures, a sledge hammer is needed to remove a rock. In most cases, the rock breaks up before coming free from the secret formula mortar""
haven't tried it yet, but if it does everything the writer of the article says it does, then it's definitely a winner.

Well countryescape, I do know that they're banned several european countries (I think england is one of them)
because of fears that they could escape and out-compete native fish.
An additional benifit of weather loaches?
well, while looking for food and shelter I think they would probably aereate any folds in the liner and stir up the sediment, giving the filter another chance to pick it up.

Actually waterbug, if one is lucky enough to have a slope on thier property (or a drianage ditch in my case) to allow for the 'flush valve'then a spippy can be partially buried, as only the top need be higher than the pond.
On the other hand, the bottom of a trickle tower has to be higher than the top of the pond.
In any case, all I've heard on skippy filters indicates they are quite adequate for ponds that don't include koi.

Okay everybody, here's the first rough plan for my pond, Does anyone have any suggestions?
I will probably move the position of the filter and pump, but otherwise I think this is what I want the pond to look like.

For scale the pond drawn here would be 8'X16', and each square of the grid is six inches.

 

[koiguy1969]

FOR UNDER A LINER OR UNDER YOUR CARPET....REBOND IS THE WAY TO GO!

 

[Rhoadsclan]

I had two major lesson learned form my pond....

Talavera Tile is not water proof... Skim coat with a water proof coating before setting tile, I highly recommend Epoxy grout easy to work with and easy to clean. Thin set directly to cinder block did not create a water proof barrier.
My leaks are very minimal (but there is no such thing as mostly water proof)


You can run pipes inside the pond without it being a maintenance hassle.
I used 12" x 1/2" rebar set 3" in to my concrete walls. Rebar was epoxied in and allowed to set. I plugged one end of 1/2" PVC tube and put T fitting on that end. I used marine adhesive and glued an 11" long 1/2 PVC on to the rebar. I painted everything with pond armor to seal where they connected to wall. I used HVAC 4' long Zip ties thru the PVC "t" fitting to attach my 3" intake and return pipes. My return pipes are 6-7 inches off of the wall and allow pool brush easy access. It is very easy to brush the entire floor.

 

[addy1]

Like your pond diagram jeremy! I used carpet pad below my pond, easy to use, cut, move around.

 

[Jeremy]

[sub]Thank you again koiguy.[/sub]
[sub]What density would you recommend?[/sub]

[sub]Thank you rhoadsclan.[/sub]
[sub]No talavera tile, got it.[/sub]
[sub]I'm seriously considering running the pipes underground outside the pond.[/sub]
[sub]Could simplify things I think.[/sub]
[sub]regarding tinset not being waterproof, I'm thinking it's the reaction between the thinset and the mortar mix that makes the mortar waterproof.[/sub]
[sub]That is of course, assuming that the waterproof mortar actually works.[/sub]
[sub]I'm thinking I'll make a small project like a birdbath or something as a "test run" before I actually try using it to make the pond walls.[/sub]

[sub]Thanks Addy, I'm thinking of possibly adding a tiered fountain in the middle of the pond, and a viewing window in one side of the wall, although I may drop it if it starts to look like it's beyond my ability.[/sub]

[sub]On a side note, I'm just about 100% sure that my pond will be visited immideately by both Herons and Raccoons when it's finished. :sad: [/sub]
[sub]Just the other day I saw a Great Egret at a ditch that's less than a block from the house as the heron flies, :angry: and the last two times that our garbage was left out, our trashcan, which is one of those big plastic ones with a hinged lid, was opened without being knocked over and trash strewn about.[/sub]
[sub]I can't think of any animal other than a raccoon that would have opened the lid without knocking over the trash can, and the trash pickup site is about 30 feet from the pond's location. :banghead3: [/sub]

 

[addy1]

The raccoons have never caused my pond any problem, but the heron has been a brat. I saw it fly over the other day, did not stop. But now it is warmer the fish are out so putting the alligators back in the water. Got the chicken wire up around the edge so the sucker can't just walk in. One piece of deer fencing running right down the center to make it hard for the bird to fly in and land in the shallow end. Its wings would get caught in that deer fencing.

 

[Jeremy]

Hmm, maybe I'll just make the whole pond 4' deep and put the lillypads and any marginals on cinderblocks.
I know that this would not be 100% effective, but I can't see it not being at least a small deterrent, and it would also increase the pond's volume from the current 2860 gallons to 3417 gallons.
The cinderblocks would also make some nice shelters for the fish, too. :goldfish:

If that doesn't work, I could try using a low-voltage electric fence. :zap:
There is an electric fence energizer made for dogs at the pet store that says it's Safe for toy breeds, so I'm guessing that would make it safe for herons too. :wink:

LOL, listen to me, I'm talking like I already have the pond built and stocked.
:toothy12: