PH crashed and high nitrate

[Nepen]

Last night I noticed one of my original isn't doing so well so I thought he's just old but then I saw one fish with torn fins and tail so I got worried.

I tested the water and my pH was low, quite low. The ammonia and nitrite are fine and hardly registered but nitrate was very high.

I did a 50% water changed then added some baking soda and now the pH is back to normal. I also added crused oyster shell in there, hoping for it to help. The Nitrate is still in the high range this morning so I made another 30-40% water changed. Also went to buy more plants for the tank. Nitrate is now in the 5-10 range.

Two weeks ago was the last time I check the water and it was still fine. Nitrate was in the 10, I didn't think it was too high, as I have plants I thought it'd be taken care of.

I got new type of food and my son and I had fun feeding the fish. I suspect my son to feed the fish while I wasn't looking too.

Over feeding is probably one problem.

I also got the new top and now it mostly sealed the tank so little water evaporation, don't know if that has anything to do with it or not, seeing other tanks with cover didn't have the problem.

I'm hoping nothing like this ever happen again. I'm going to monitor my water more often and feed less food. Then if I see higher nitrate (more than 10) I'll do some water change.

Anya

 

[sissy]

raising ph can be done with baking soda but you have to know how much to add

 

[Nepen]

Thanks sissy. Dave actually told me half a year ago when I first started my pond with a very low pH. I didn't remember how much but I just added a little bit then I tested the water, it came out good so I stopped

Did you ever succeed in finding ...err... I remember what it called but it's similar to oyster shell in helping with controlling pH? Starting with the z.... Ahh my brain, sorry sissy.

 

[sissy]

zeolite is actually pdz horse stall refresher it is just a finer form and used to control ammonia and crushed oyster shells and is for chickens and used to stable the ph and I get both at tractor supply and use dollar store laundry bags doubled up .

 

[Nepen]

Oh I got the ammonia and pH mixed up. I remembered you were looking for something....hm... I don't think it's zero light now. It something you couldn't find anywhere, around the end of summer. Anyway, don't mind me, I'm babbling now.

 

[crsublette]

Sounds like you have it figured out... Crushed oyster shells, baking soda (preferably after the water changes), and water changes... That's pretty much it.

The "dose, wait, and see what happens" is usually ok as long as you do not put too much baking soda into the water. To help you out, here is a quite helpful calculator. Baking Soda and Alkalinity (KH) calculator. Even though Baking Soda is fast, it is not instantaneous and it takes time for the product to reach an equilibrium throughout the pond.

Baking soda dissolves quite fast and the sudden change in pH could put your fish into even more shock. I would only raise the KH by 1 or 2 degrees every 12 hours. Use the calculator to figure out the dosing instructions.


If you continue have nitrates and have reduced feeding, then Zeolite will help you also by reducing the volume of ammonia that is converted into nitrates. Zeolite can only absorb so much ammonia. Once the product reaches its limit, then the ammonia is released back into the water, which could lead to ammonia spikes. So, be sure the zeolite is changed out with some fresh zeolite product in a timely manner. Unlike other absorbent products, Zeolite can be "recharged", that is forcing the Zeolite to release the ammonia so that it can be reused. Zeolite is recharged by soaking the product in water that has a high sodium chloride concentration, that is 5% salinity works good enough and fast after soaking the Zeolite for 12 hours. Zeolite functions on a principle of ion exchange. When Zeolite encounters an ammonia compound, then the Zeolite release the sodium chloride salt so that the ammonia can be absorbed. When Zeolite encounters sodium chloride salt, then the Zeolite releases the ammonia so the salt can be absorbed. Do not be concerned since the sodium chloride released is not a high enough volume to impact the pond's salinity. However, if baking soda is constantly used over a long period, then the pond's salinity will eventually increase. So, it is just good pond husbandry practices to do a once a season or once a year slow, steady, major water change of around 40% or higher.


Without tedious water testing or at least once a week water testing to witness a pattern change, then it is tough to know exactly what happened.

1) Your KH levels finally were consumed to a quite low degree, due to nitrate production (that is nitrification), to the point that the present KH could no longer keep your pH stable.

2) You had a sudden influx of acid introduced to the pond, either due to rain or sudden aeration in the pond after winter.

3) Something was dumped into the water either do to runoff or human intervention.


Hope this helps.

 

[Nepen]

Thanks Charles. That's pretty informative This is for my inside tank though, so no rain to caused any sudden acid to it but I didn't know that sudden aeration could caused sudden acid influx too?

I've been worried about my outside pond. The pond got iced over for about 4 days. No hole in the ice as I don't have bubbler or anything. It's a small nod of 600~ gallon. Then when it started to warm up again I turned on my waterfall to speed up the melting of the ice...The water had some bad smell at first then it went away after a few minutes. Can that be consider sudden aeration?

I have not seen my 5 fish in there (6 at the beginning of the winter, then when it warmed up the fish came out only 5 showed up). I'm afraid all are dead because the deep freeze (very unusual in this part of NC). I have a raised pond and no below grade. The ice was like 6 inches thick or something. The pond is almost 2 feet deep.


More on the inside tank - I tested the water to go in the tank for pH and it was 7~ so after I did water change I tested the water again then add only about 1tbs in the water, it shouldn't be too fast for the fish? The pH before water change was 6~

 

[sissy]

If you had a filter connected to your waterfall and it was shut down and not cleaned the smell could have came from that and if you have a foam prefilter it could have came from that .It smells like a sewer it could be bad for your fish .Before winter comes if a pump has one of those foam prefilters they should be removed if you plan on shutting the pump down at any time and clean filter tanks if you plan on shutting them down all the bad stuff settles to the bottom of the filter .It looks like black water and can be filled with toxic stuff .If you think you will be shutting your filter down during the winter it is better to clean it so toxic stuff does not build up in the bottom of the filter .If you don't have a drain in your filter do like I do and put a small pump in the bottom of the filter with a hose that comes out and just put fresh water in the top and plug the pump in so it can take all the stuff out of the bottom of the filter .Those pump prefilters can get nasty smelling fast and start to break down not being used .

 

[Nepen]

Hi sissy,
I don't have the foam filter anymore since I changed it to run my water through container filled with gravel and plants. But it gave me idea that the smell might come from the bog...where it's act like my mechanical filter and the smell might come from that. I'll have to investigate. Thanks for the idea!!

 

[crsublette]

Thanks Charles. That's pretty informative This is for my inside tank though, so no rain to caused any sudden acid to it but 1) I didn't know that sudden aeration could caused sudden acid influx too?

I've been worried about my outside pond. 2) The pond got iced over for about 4 days. No hole in the ice as I don't have bubbler or anything. It's a small nod of 600~ gallon. Then when it started to warm up again I turned on my waterfall to speed up the melting of the ice...The water had some bad smell at first then it went away after a few minutes. Can that be consider sudden aeration?

3) I have not seen my 5 fish in there (6 at the beginning of the winter, then when it warmed up the fish came out only 5 showed up). I'm afraid all are dead because the deep freeze (very unusual in this part of NC). I have a raised pond and no below grade. The ice was like 6 inches thick or something. The pond is almost 2 feet deep.


More on the inside tank - I tested the water to go in the tank for pH and it was 7~ so after I did water change I tested the water again 4) then add only about 1tbs in the water, it shouldn't be too fast for the fish? The pH before water change was 6~

1) I didn't know that sudden aeration could caused sudden acid influx too?

Yep, when water is not aerated and allowed to be stagnant, even with shallow 12 inch ponds, there will still be an accumulation of carbon dioxide bound to the water, although quite a small volume for shallow ponds. If the lid or ice on top of the tank or pond does not allow good air flow, then the carbon dioxide volume could be higher. Then, after left stagnant for such a long period, once aeration is turned on, the carbon dioxide more readily converts into carbonic acid and this acid can give you problems if your alkalinity low, as tested with the KH test kit.

All fish, algae, and decay constantly contributes carbon dioxide into the water, even during winter, so this is why it is a good reason to maintain active aeration.



2) The pond got iced over for about 4 days. No hole in the ice as I don't have bubbler or anything. It's a small nod of 600~ gallon. Then when it started to warm up again I turned on my waterfall to speed up the melting of the ice...The water had some bad smell at first then it went away after a few minutes. Can that be consider sudden aeration?

Yeah, what you are smelling is quite likely hydrogen sulfide, which can smell like rotten eggs or quite strong stale pond/aquarium water smell. This is mainly created when oxygen supply, or aeration, ceases in an area, then becomes stagnant, then suddenly is aerated. Depending on the water volume, this stagnation only takes up to a day to happen or much longer. Aeration will cause it to dissipate faster, which is a good thing, but allowing this to happen in the first place is not really recommended. Generally, it is not a problem unless the fish swims through the stuff, lets it get in their gills, as the gas is aerating to the surface; when this happens, then there are problems.

Even with ice layer formations, aeration diffusers will still continue bubbling air under it and does not hurt. Although, with some aerator motors, the cold air might be tough on them. I kept mine running all winter round, got about 3 inches thick of ice and still kept it running. It would not hurt to get a good quality 1250 or 1500 watt floating pond heater to keep a small, regardless of how small, open.



3) I have not seen my 5 fish in there (6 at the beginning of the winter, then when it warmed up the fish came out only 5 showed up). I'm afraid all are dead because the deep freeze (very unusual in this part of NC). I have a raised pond and no below grade. The ice was like 6 inches thick or something. The pond is almost 2 feet deep.

Oh, who knows... If they're regular goldfish, then might be fine. I have seen goldfish in the same situation in cattle water troughs and they still survived.

Just gotta hope for the best.



4) then add only about 1tbs in the water, it shouldn't be too fast for the fish?

Depends on the volume of the tank... How many water gallons are in the tanks?

 

[sissy]

yep took out abandoned ponds here and the smell can gag you and fish were fine .I guess some fish just adapt .How I don't know .I know how many showers and baths I had to take trying to rid myself of that smell .I even sniffed vanilla .Had a vanilla high

 

[Nepen]

Lol Sissy, I love vanilla smell. How does vanilla high feel like?

Charles, Thank you I'll see if I can make the water surface open... this cole weather and freeze is so unusal for us in NC.

My inside tank is about 40-44 gallons. Today I saw this white power on my plants and heater. It looks like someone dust baby powder on them. Could it be the baking soda? if so, I thought it'd dissolved soon after I put it in? why is it a few days later and it's sticking to stuff in my tank...

The fish that has torn fins is doing great. I dont see him with clamp fins or tail anymore and nosign of any white film on him. he just looks good and happy. so water changed helped save my tank

 

[sissy]

Not sure but had vanilla candles burning and everything I could think of also .It was just me because no one else I asked could smell it .I love vanilla also and lavender .I put clear pure extract vanilla in paint when I paint any of the rooms in the house .

 

[crsublette]

Lol Sissy, I love vanilla smell. How does vanilla high feel like?

Charles, Thank you 1) I'll see if I can make the water surface open... this cole weather and freeze is so unusal for us in NC.

2) My inside tank is about 40-44 gallons. 3) Today I saw this white power on my plants and heater. It looks like someone dust baby powder on them. Could it be the baking soda? if so, I thought it'd dissolved soon after I put it in? why is it a few days later and it's sticking to stuff in my tank...

The fish that has torn fins is doing great. I dont see him with clamp fins or tail anymore and nosign of any white film on him. he just looks good and happy. so water changed helped save my tank

1) I'll see if I can make the water surface open... this cole weather and freeze is so unusal for us in NC.

Just do not take a hammer to the ice when trying to open a hole. The vibrations can potentially harm the fish in your shallow pond.



2) My inside tank is about 40-44 gallons.

From using the calculator referenced above, for 40~44 gallons of water, then 3.8 grams (0.134 ounces) to 4 grams (0.147 ounces) is all that is needed to make a 1 degree change.

One TABLEspoon is 0.5 ounces (14grams). One TEAspoon is 0.17 ounces (4.8 grams). It would be better to use one TEAspoon.

The one TABLEspoon you added increased the water's alkalinity by 3.7 degrees.

I would wait until adding anymore baking soda.

These type of situations is why it is be good to have a liquid alkalinity test kit, such as API's KH test kit.



3) Today I saw this white power on my plants and heater. It looks like someone dust baby powder on them. Could it be the baking soda? if so, I thought it'd dissolved soon after I put it in? why is it a few days later and it's sticking to stuff in my tank...


Short answer:

Your pH likely crashed due to a terrible swing falling too low, due to low alkalinity and nitrification.

You likely dosed the water with baking soda when the water's pH was swinging on the high pH range and due to the rapid increase in the alkalinity from alot of baking soda being dosed.

If your pH is still swinging, which is possible although I doubt it, then the white residue will dissolve, but, if it does not dissolve, then this likely means that your pH has stopped swinging.


Long answer:

The "white powder" is likely precipitated calcium in the form of calcium carbonate.

Baking soda can cause this to happen when it is dosed in water that has a quite high pH, that is 9 or higher, and has a low concentration of free calcium (Ca++).

This is due to how the bicarbonate compound (HCO3-) in baking soda, which is sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3), is reaching an equilibrium with a high pH water, which high pH water has a high volume of hydroxides (OH-). Water that is high in hydroxides (OH-) contributes to creating a high volume of carbonates (CO32-). When baking soda (NaHCO3) dissolves in this type of water, this creates a sodium cation (Na++), a hydrogen cation (H+) and a carbonate anion (CO32-). The hydrogon cation (H+) is grabbed by a hydroxide (OH-) so to create water (H2O). The sodium cation (Na++) remains in the water's suspension, as an electrolyte salt, that increases the water's salinity and total dissolve solids (TDS) and this is why continual use of baking soda over a long period of time increases a water's salinity. When the high pH is only 9~10, then there is still a quite low concentration of free calcium (Ca++), except not enough calcium to stop the rise in the pH. The carbonate anion (CO32-) increases the concentration of carbonates in the water and this forces some of the remaining free calcium divalent cation (Ca++) to create calcium carbonate (CaCO3), which precipitates creating a "white powder".

This also happens when dosing a high pH water with calcium chloride (CaCl2), that is, as calcium concentration is increased in high pH water, then this binds with the free carbonates to create a precipitate and lowers the pH to no lower than 8.3~8.5.

However, the bond between the two ions in calcium carbonate is quite strong and requires a pH of below 8.3~8.5 for calcium carbonate to dissolve back into the water.

Thus, there is an accumulation of "white powder" after dosing baking soda in high pH water.


As far as I am aware, without knowing more specifics.... This is what I think has happened...

 

[crsublette]

There are plants that also create this "white powder", that is calcium oxide. When these particular plants are consuming carbon dioxide (CO2) directly from calcium carbonate (CaCO3), which creates calcium oxide (CaO), then this will also leave a "white powder" residue on the plant's leaves. However, I doubt this is the situation, but it could if it is the right type of plant.