Overflow?

[Mucky_Waters]

What you were describing with 3" bottom drain gravity feeding though 3 tanks is essentially what I have.
Except the first tanks is a 110 gal conical vortex tank and I have 3500 gph pump in the last tank.
There will always be a certain amount of drop down from one tank to the next, and any mechanical filtration that restricts flow will cause more severe drop down to the point of causing the water to drop down enough in the final tank that the pump starts sucking air. Of course once it does that it becomes airlocked and stops pumping water at it's usual rate and the water level will rise in the barrel and very likely the pump will prime itself again (depending on the pump and it's exact location). Of course until the restriction is cleared the water will drop again and the cycle will continue to repeat itself. Although this is not ideal and can be hard on the pump it is unlikely the pump will burn out right away.
I have an overflow off the pond itself, During normal operating conditions there is no way for the tanks to overflow, however. I did install an overflow on my large conical tank. The reason being that in the winter I change my plumbing around and close off the two 55 gal blue tanks and only have the water flowing through the bottom drain into the large conical vortex tank and directly back into the pond via the 1" skimmer line. This keeps some ongoing circulation in the pond and allows oxygen into the pond water via the vortex tank which never freezes. But the pond does completely freeze over, and snow accumulates on the the pond ice which weighs down the ice and effectively raises the pond water level, but because the pond overflow is frozen over the water level can increase in the vortex tank and it can overflow on the sides, so I installed a small overflow pipe to allow the excess water to drain down into the open ground below the tank instead of spilling over the sides of the tank and onto the floor of my pump room.

The overflow line

BTW having a gravity fed system through several tanks like that is far superior and safer to having the pump fed direct by the bottom drain.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

Bob, I somehow didn't see your post above. That makes me feel better on my original plans. I think I'll go with that at first and see how it goes.

I believe Bob's drain is connected directly to the pump. If so, this is vastly different then a gravity fed system like you are building. With a gravity fed system you need much larger drain lines to get adequate flow.
I agree with Usman's recommendations you should probably use a 4" (gravity) drain with a 4500 gph pump, and his recommendation to draw up a plan and have experienced people review it before you start putting the system together. Nothing more painful then building something like that and finding out it doesn't work the way you'd hoped.

 

[Marinegrunt]

That's similar to what I was thinking of doing. I kinda figured 2 barrels with filter media and the third just for the pump. I have a bunch of 2" bulkhead fittings that I was going to use to connect them. This is my first attempt at a garden pond so still trying to grasp everything. The house we bought had a couple small preformed ponds but they were thrashed and not being used. Our daughter wanted to get them going. I decided to do away with the old ones and go with liners for a bigger pond. The top pond is just going to be more of a holding area for the waterfall and stream. Our daughter has been dealing with some depression so want to make a nice relaxing garden oasis for her. It seems like having a bottom drain saves on a lot of cleaning so decided to go that route. That's the easiest way for me to filter. The way that side of our yard is wont allow room to bury barrels. The upper "pond" is too close to the back of the garage and then the yard slopes off to one side.

There's a wealth of knowledge on here so I'm sure everyone will be able to help me figure it all out.

Thanks!

 

[Marinegrunt]

I wish I would've drawn up a plan. I already have everything dug. The upper tiny pond, waterfall, stream, and main pond which is about 8x13. I already install and buried the 3" drain pipe. It rained like mad last night so everything is a mess. I have to whole yard torn up right now to level and add new top soil so everything is a mess!

If the 3" is enough flow would I be okay using a smaller pump from barrels going right back to the big pond and the just using the 4500 pump directly from the bottom of the big pond up to the small pond for the waterfall and stream? Seems it might be easier to adjust waterflow that way. One thing about the original way is when I shut the pump off all of the water from the falls and stream will run down and add all of that extra water to the barrels. I guess I could put an overflow on the barrel so when the pump is off that extra water just just keeps flowing back to the pond.

Right now the 3" pipe comes out about 2 to 3' lower than the top of the pond. I could adjust the height of it up or down to speed up or slow down flow. I read somewhere that a 10" drop allows something like 12000 gph worth of flow. I also read on here where Waterbug said the flow rate of a bottom drain is exactly the same as the water your pumping in.

Considering I already have the 3" pipe dug in I guess I can just go with it and see what happens. Worst case I can just control the flow after the pump as Meyer mentioned. If I need more water flow for the waterfall and stream I can add another pump to the main pond and plumb it directly to the upper pond.

 

[Marinegrunt]

By the way Mucky....that's a really nice setup.

 

[Usman]

Our backyard backs up to a wooded ravine. The drums are going to be at th edge of the ravine so they can't be seen but will still be level with the pond. I don't really have the option for an upper drum.

What I might do is have the 4500 gph pump go from the bottom of the big pond up to the small pond. I can then get a smaller pump to just do the filtering. It sounds like slower water flow through the filter is better anyways. The small pump could go from the drums right back to big pond. Plus, I will then have full flow through the 4500 pump for a good waterfall and stream. Thoughts on that way vs just using the 4500 only in a drum?

there are many ways to fix this but the efficiency will drop ,u can keep 4500gph pump.. one way is to add siphon piple any rubber garden piple from 1st barrel(or pond) to last barrel make sure it has no air in it and both ends are underwater, it will keep pump always submerged as it will maintain same level of pond , just filteration may b compromised , all that plan remains same .

 

[Usman]

That's similar to what I was thinking of doing. I kinda figured 2 barrels with filter media and the third just for the pump. I have a bunch of 2" bulkhead fittings that I was going to use to connect them. This is my first attempt at a garden pond so still trying to grasp everything. The house we bought had a couple small preformed ponds but they were thrashed and not being used. Our daughter wanted to get them going. I decided to do away with the old ones and go with liners for a bigger pond. The top pond is just going to be more of a holding area for the waterfall and stream. Our daughter has been dealing with some depression so want to make a nice relaxing garden oasis for her. It seems like having a bottom drain saves on a lot of cleaning so decided to go that route. That's the easiest way for me to filter. The way that side of our yard is wont allow room to bury barrels. The upper "pond" is too close to the back of the garage and then the yard slopes off to one side.

There's a wealth of knowledge on here so I'm sure everyone will be able to help me figure it all out.

Thanks!

aw so nice of u to do this for ur daughter , hope its sucessfull .I love ur plan its gona look awsome , we r brain storming , we can b wrong or right just opening things so u can figure out pros cons , yes bottom drain is best method to keep pond clean at the bottom .
i get u so ur burrieng barrels near bigger pond .

 

[Usman]

I wish I would've drawn up a plan. I already have everything dug. The upper tiny pond, waterfall, stream, and main pond which is about 8x13. I already install and buried the 3" drain pipe. It rained like mad last night so everything is a mess. I have to whole yard torn up right now to level and add new top soil so everything is a mess!

If the 3" is enough flow would I be okay using a smaller pump from barrels going right back to the big pond and the just using the 4500 pump directly from the bottom of the big pond up to the small pond for the waterfall and stream? Seems it might be easier to adjust waterflow that way. One thing about the original way is when I shut the pump off all of the water from the falls and stream will run down and add all of that extra water to the barrels. I guess I could put an overflow on the barrel so when the pump is off that extra water just just keeps flowing back to the pond.

Right now the 3" pipe comes out about 2 to 3' lower than the top of the pond. I could adjust the height of it up or down to speed up or slow down flow. I read somewhere that a 10" drop allows something like 12000 gph worth of flow. I also read on here where Waterbug said the flow rate of a bottom drain is exactly the same as the water your pumping in.

Considering I already have the 3" pipe dug in I guess I can just go with it and see what happens. Worst case I can just control the flow after the pump as Meyer mentioned. If I need more water flow for the waterfall and stream I can add another pump to the main pond and plumb it directly to the upper pond.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

View attachment 94699

Since the water level in a gravity feed system will remain the same in all containers, a siphon is a useless redundancy. If overflow is a concern then the overflow outlet can be located in the main pond basin as Mucky Waters suggested.

 

[Usman]

Since the water level in a gravity feed system will remain the same in all containers, a siphon is a useless redundancy. If overflow is a concern then the overflow outlet can be located in the main pond basin as Mucky Waters suggested.

siphon will keep the last barrel always full even if water pressure is reduced due to filter media . He will add one more barrel i think that will reduce pressure after a month or so , suppose if filter gets clogged and water doesnot reach pump as much its pumping .. 4500gph pump will empty barrel in 30 sec

 

[Marinegrunt]

The siphon tube is a neat idea. Is it possible for a siphon tube to cause the barrel to overflow? Like when I turn the pump off? I guess an overflow from the barrels back to the main pond could prevent that from happening?

I'm taking notes so I might as well ask what the recommendations are for filter media? Since the barrels are going to be hidden at the edge of the ravine I can use as many barrels as I need. I already have some of those pinky filters. I was thinking in another barrel using some layers of different rock. With the 4500 gph pump I don't see a settling tank working since particles won't have time to settle but I don't know for sure. I'll do whatever I need to in order to keep the maintenance to a minimum.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

The siphon tube is a neat idea. Is it possible for a siphon tube to cause the barrel to overflow? Like when I turn the pump off? I guess an overflow from the barrels back to the main pond could prevent that from happening?

I'm taking notes so I might as well ask what the recommendations are for filter media? Since the barrels are going to be hidden at the edge of the ravine I can use as many barrels as I need. I already have some of those pinky filters. I was thinking in another barrel using some layers of different rock. With the 4500 gph pump I don't see a settling tank working since particles won't have time to settle but I don't know for sure. I'll do whatever I need to in order to keep the maintenance to a minimum.

I don't believe that you ever really indicated how many 55 gallon drums you had. You ideally need three (3), One for settling, one for mechanical filtration and the final one for bio. A settling tank will work with a 4500 gph pump providing a vortex is created in the water flow within the tank. For biofilter media I would recommend bioballs due to the cubic feet of media that will be needed.
I still have doubts on the efficacy of a siphon. Even if it does work to prevent pump cavitation, its existence will split the water flow coming into the final barrel with part being unfiltered pond water and part being filtered water. This automatically reduces the volume of water being exposed to bioconversion, greatly affecting water quality. It would also mask the status of both the mechanical filter and the biofilter as to when they require cleaning because water flow would never be affected. I have never heard of anyone having trouble with overflow or pump cavitation using the 3-tank gravity fed system.

 

[Marinegrunt]

Thanks Meyer.....I have a bunch of 55 gallon drums and room to line up as many as needed. First tank will be my settling tank with vortex. Second tank bio balls? Third tank just an empty drum for the pump? Should I have a drum with the pinky mesh filters after the settling tank or are the bio balls enough? Also, I read about using small pieces of 1/2 plastic tubing as the bio balls. Will that work? I have a bunch of 1/2" pex laying around that I could cut up.

You guys are awesome. Thanks for all of the help!

 

[mgmine]

You had better put a valve before the water gets into the first barrel. If not you are going to drain the pond every time the pump is shut down. Also if you find that this isn't working out for you, you will need a way to shut the water off. I'm not sure what a bottom drain is going to get you but it seems like an awful lot of work. Keep an open mind to simply putting a pump in the skimmer

 

[Marinegrunt]

I do have a 3" shutoff for before the drum. It won't drain the pond with the pump shut down though. The drums won't overflow if at the same height as the pond. They'll actually be like 6" higher than the pond so the water level will be 6" below the top of the drum even with the pump off. That's the idea of a gravity fed system. They will always stay the same level as the pond.

From what I've read it seems a bottom drain saves on maintenance. A lot of people seem to recommend them. I don't think the skimmer would pull fish waste off the bottom. I don't want to have to mess with vacuuming if I can get away with it. If I run into problems I can just cap the drain off or, shut the valve, and do away with it.

Seems like there a a lot of setups with a gravity fed system so hopefully it'll all work out. Seems like it would be the best way to filter because you can add as many drums as you want with all kinds of filter media. I'm new to this though so I have no hands on knowledge whatsoever. I just know what I have researched and what everyone has advised me on. I try to always have a backup plan though.