new mini-pond taking F.O.R.E.V.E.R. to cycle

[LuLu]

Hi all... new pond/fish addict here. :regular_waving_emot

Since being bitten by the pond bug, I've been plucking around on various online forums here and there, and although I've "met" a few very nice/informative people, I haven't really found a place that feels like I'm getting the best "pond" advice. That might've been because the forums I've been perusing were either aquarium forums, or garden forums that happen to have a pond section as an afterthought, but either way... I'm hoping that I end up with better a better grasp on ponding here. :biggrin:

So... my setup/story: Last year I decided that I needed a small Japanese-esque garden with a tiny "koi" pond as my centerpiece/new happy place. Knowing the amount of space I'd have to work with (NONE, lol), I knew that I wouldn't end up with an ACTUAL koi-size pond, so I settled on the idea of a tiny pond that I could put goldfish into instead. After researching the sizes and shapes of the pre-formed pond, I quickly realized that I couldn't find a size/shape/gallon that I'd be happy with, and since this was a new endeavor, I wasn't *completely* secure in my ability to dig and line a tiny pond, so I just made it all up as I went along, which is how I ended up with the following:

36" diameter, 18" deep, 64g Tuff Stuff tub. The inside (sides, not bottom) & top rim are covered w/ Rock-on-a-Roll, so that it wouldn't look like a black plastic tub in a hole. The bottom is covered with natural river rocks & flat glass pebbles. It's almost right up against the house (walk-out ranch), under a deck. It gets a couple hours of sunlight in the morning, and a couple more hours from the other direction late in the afternoon. Lightly planted with submergibles I've obtained from aquarium stores (since they're more plentiful in my immediate area than the closest pond store), such as wisteria, creeping jenny, anubias nana, some amazonian swords. My filter is a 130gph fountain pump, in a filter box containining: 30 Bio-Balls, 36 oz. of clay Bio-Rings, a mesh media bag full of batting directly around the pump, a bag of used aquarium filter media, plus... the usual foam pads - a coarse and fine. The filter return is normally a tiny waterfall that I built myself with rocks and silicone, but since it currently has a slow leak I'm in the process of finding, the filter/pump is running a waterbell.

The fun part? It's been up and running SINCE EARLY APRIL, and still has not cycled! I was orignially fish-IN cycling with feeder goldfish, until I realized I was over a month in, yet still waiting,, and changing water and waiting some more, and changing more water... In that time I had also added 2 - 32. oz bottles of Fritz-Zyme 7 (beneficial bacteria recommended by the aquarium store guy) 2 weeks apart. When I was still fighting ammonia in early May, and was starting to fight a rising nitrite level as well, he even offered up a large bag of used filter media - I added it to my filter. My nitrites dropped, but I still had ammonia.

May 22nd is when I took the remaining feeder goldfish out and started fishless cycling. These were my readings on May 23rd:
PH: 7.6 (this is the usual)
KH: 120 (this is also the usual)
GH: 75 (again... usual)
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: between 0 & 5, guessing 3-ish.
Ammonia: just over 4ppm.

May 25th... a green water algae bloom started.

The last week of may I had GREEN water and apparently something rotting in the pond because it was making it's own ammonia. I looked and looked for it, did water changes, never found it... Ammonia ended up around 8. Did a super water change to get it back down to between 4-5, where it stayed for a couple days before sloooooowly starting to drop again.

I had a vaca planned from June 4th - 11th and figured since I had a problem with somethin in my pond making ammonia for me, it was easier to just let it do it's thing for a week than to teach my 19 yr old son to test/add ammonia/top off, never mind the fact that it looked like a bucket of pea soup anyway.

SO, flash forward to NOW: Came back from vacation to 0.25 to 0.5 ammonia, 0.25 nitrites, and 20 or so nitrates. Was SUPER GREEN. Gave it one heck of a cleaning/90% water change, added more filter media (didn't remove any), and started back in with the ammonia dosing to get this dang thing cycled! Nitrates and nitrites both started rising again slowly. The green water algae started to clear/die back this past weekend somehow which pushed the nitrates to 80, so Saturday (the 11th) I did a massive wc and put an old cotton Tshirt over the filter intake to "catch" what was left of the algae. I finally have crystal clear water again! Also added twice as many plants. After the algae clean up, nitrates were back down to 10-ish, nitrites 2-ish, and I made sure the Ammonia was again around 5. Today, 2 days later... I'm at ammonia 2, nitrates are over 5 (the purple is almost fuchsia!), and 30ish nitrites. The usuals listed above under May 23rd are still the usuals for the other readings.

I keep waiting for the magical day that I'll wake to find no nitrates, and then maybe even no ammonia as well, but am starting to believe it's always just going to be a water garden... never a bride... er... actual fish-containing pond.

Any ideas on why it hasn't cycled yet?! It was supposed to be my happy place... but as it stands now... I sit in the kitchen to watch my fish, and then outside to watch my pond.

Thanks in advance for any insight, advice, suggestions, guesses, hypotheses, thoughts, brain farts, etc...

~Lu

 

[HTH]

Regarding fish less cycling I expect you are mostly chasing you tail. Most people have no idea how much ammonia the fish load will produce. I would rather people add fish food and let it produce the ammonia because they have a much better idea of how much to add. Start by adding a bit of food each day while monitoring the ammonia. If the pond already has sufficient ammonia for the bacteria there is no point in adding more food. If you never let the ammonia level get too high you never have to change water. (think this is right but need verification) Once you can feed every day as if there were fish with a zero ammonia reading the pond is fully cycled.

Once the ammonia (and nitrite) go to zero the pond is cycled. Do not wait for or expect the nitrates to go to zero. That is up to plants not the bacteria.

The number of bacteria in the pond double about once a day. It can take weeks to where it will support one fish. Then then next day 2, then 4 etc. So take it easy when you are first start the cycling.

Green water happens where there are more nutrients, including ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates, then the plants can handle. Nature steps in and uses algae to reduce the nutrient level. I would not fight the algae till the pond is cycled and then only by reducing the nitrates with plants (with roots in the water) or water changes. If you have enough of the right minerals and nutrients in the water supply a change can actually make the algae worse.

Goldfish seem to like suspended green algae and it is great for fry.

HTH

 

[fishin4cars]

WOW! OK, That's a lot of information! I love your last line! This one is a TRUE challange. Kind of late tonight to break all this one down. Can you take some pics and show me what were looking at? Lot of great folks here that will chime in I'm sure. I honestly believe your bio-filter is cycled, but something is causing a serious ammonia problem, No fish and your still getting that high of a reading, Are there tadpoles or other life in there? I'm concerned about the gravel on the bottom but doing the type water change you did I'm kind of as baffled as you. 64 gallons is a tiny pond, but I have one that is in the 25-30 range and I'm breeding fish in it so I know this is possible. Are you willing to start over? NOT 100% but it may be needed at some point although I would rather try to figure this out without going that route if possible. I would like if possible to see pictures of what the plants look like, a shot of the filter( Do not clean or disturb the media inside yet) a close up shot and a distant shot of the pond. Sounds like you have been working on this a while, don't jump on the first thing you hear. Lets take the time to see if we can figure out what is causing the problem, then figure out a plan to fix it.

 

[KennethO]

Welcome and I hope you get this solved very soon.
There are a few questions I have for you that will help us find any problems.

What were your plants planted in? Dirt, clay or pea gravel? Dirt contains organic waste (leaves, mulch and other compost). This will decompose naturally and raise the ammonia level.
Do you use declorinater? I prefer to mix any water I add in 5gal buckets before adding it to the pond and pooring it at the farthest point from the pump/ filter intake. The clorine in tap water will kill your bacteria. If you added the water right by the filters input before mixing it could have killed some.
How often did you feed your fish? And did your fertilize your plants?

It sounds to me like you need a larger biological filter. It sounds like your bacteria colony is unable to grow large enough to keep the parameters in check. ceramic media is great but requires very good prefiltering to keep it from clogging. If possible you should try plastic scrubbies from the dollar store. They provide almost the same surface area as some of the best media and don't clog as easily.

Second thing I would do is clean off your plants and remove as much dirt as u can. Place and potted plants in pea gravel. Try to cover atleast 30% of the water with plants. Plants use up nitrates. While you are front to get the ammonia and nitrites under control, completely ignore the nitrates. These are harmless to your fish and it's more important to get the other 2 in check first.

You can try adding an air stone to the pond, this helps sometimes.

Good luck.

To help with high nitrAtes( the one with the A, don't mix it with nitrites) plant your plants in rinsed pea gravel.

 

[KennethO]

Grr, dang iPhone spell check.
Front is supposed to be focusing on.

 

[addy1]

Very nice and informative post lulu, these guys will help you get it going in the right direction.

 

[LuLu]

Howard... I was going by what the aquarium folks said about the fishless cycle, apparently people who cycle similar sized tanks can add ammonia to get it up to 5ppm, which will drop to zero with NO nitrites within 12 hours. The redose the ammonia and it drops again to zero with NO nitrites within 12 hours. That's where I had been hoping to get to, so I could just do a huge water change to remove the nitrates I've been building up by cycling and then add my desired load of fish right away. If I had too much BB for my bioload, the extra BB would simply die off. I'd be happy just doing a water change now and adding fish, because it's obviously processing ammonia - I have nitrates, except that I ALWAYS have nitrites. If I could get rid of them, I'd be OK. (I think, LOL) I just tested again this morning, and my ammonia is at about 1.5ppm. I added enough ammonia to get it to 5ppm on SATURDAY morning after the algae cleanup.

Fishin... there IS no other life in there. That's the interesting part... Just water, rocks (large ones... not even small enough to refer to as gravel really), some weighted plants (not even planted at this point), the filter box, and a floating thermometer. Seriously... that's IT. And the rocks/bottom are cleaner than clean. During the clean up Saturday morning I rinsed them thoroughly with pond water. I know the bottom is still clean because I realized how tired I am of dealing with/cleaning a pond that I haven't really gotten to ENJOY yet, so all the rocks are piled on one side at the bottom, and the other half is bare bottom (plastic) right now. I'd rather NOT start over, not after coming this far, but if that ends up being my only option, I'll do what I have to. At this rate, I'll get fish in the dang thing just in time for winter.

Kenneth... the plants are simply weighted right now, not even planted into a medium. (these are the habits one picks up by trolling aquarium forums, btw... LOL) During water changes I do use a dechlorinator. I have a new/clean 15 gallon plastic garbage can that I do my premixing in before adding the water to the pond. The fish aren't in the pond right now, they're in various temp homes in the kitchen. I haven't had to fertilize the plants yet. They're all very happy and healthy due to the high ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates. I thought about needing a larger bio filter, which is why on saturday I added the ceramic filter media. (I was going on Bio-Balls, bagged batting immediately around the pump, and the bag of media from the guy at the aquarium store before) I was warned about the ceramic media needing to stay "clean", and by the time the water reaches it in the filter box, it's gone through 3 levels of foam filtering, the finest being very fine... it's VERY clean when it gets there.

Pics coming shortly...

 

[LuLu]

Photos:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ninja-von-incognito/5855980215/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ninja-von-incognito/5856533480/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ninja-von-incognito/5856610252/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ninja-von-incognito/5855978393/

 

[fishin4cars]

I have sat hear and re-read your postings three times, Just this morning! LOL and talked to a couple of people about your situation.
A few more questions, what was temp. of the pond when you started all this up? CometKeith brought to my attention that the temperatures this spring up that far north took a while to warm up. Not sure if your aware but most bacteria don't do anything if temps are below 50 degrees and are completely dormant at temps below 45 degrees. If you were adding all the ammonia and bacteria supplement this could be part of the initial problem with the cycling process. I keep reading this (I had also added 2 - 32. oz bottles of Fritz-Zyme 7 (beneficial bacteria recommended by the aquarium store guy) 2 weeks apart. When I was still fighting ammonia in early May) That's enough bacteria additive to kick-start a small reservoir! I'm wondering it your actually channeling water in the filter box and not getting a good flow through the filter media. The fine foam may need to be removed along with the ceramic media However I don't want to kill what has started in the ceramic media. So, lets try this, take the fines foam out, clean it with pond water or hose and allow to dry, take the ceramic media and move it into a small plastic bowl and and leave it in the pond for now, this will allow what bacteria have formed to stay alive and intact, Do not completely cover it as it still needs oxygen and water movement and we may add it back to the filter box a little later. Rinse the other foams with pond water, I would just take a small bucket and dip them in and out a few times and replace them, don't ring them out or try to get them super clean, I only want to make sure there is good water flow through the foam. that's the only thing I'm trying to make sure we accomplish. Do you have a small air pump you can add a air stone to the pond with, if so I want you to add the airstone and place it right on top of the ceramic media in the bowl, this will add more oxygen to the water and get a good movement of water across the ceramic media to keep the bacteria alive. Then I want you to see if you can locate some water lettuce, or water hyacinth, lettuce would be best. It does better in the limited sunlight 6-10 small ones would be great. If your sure the gravel is pretty clean I want you to either remove it, or smooth it back out to a thin layer on the bottom, If there is more than enough to lightly cover the bottom remove any extra out. I would remove it all but a very thin layer should be ok. Other than that, lets stop on the pond. But we aren't done.
Now, I want you to test the water source that you are using to do water changes, Check for ammonia and nitrites. Also I would like for you to find a small pot 8-10" top, fill it with clean pea gravel and plant your plants in the gravel. if there is anything around the roots remove it. I know some sword plants and anubias come with a plantable pot around the roots, If there is anything like that carefully remove it and throw it away. Try not to damage the roots. No more additives to the pond!
Once the ammonia is below 1ppm and the the nitrites are below 1 or 2 get a couple of small fish back in the pond. Once the fish are in the pond, feed them once every other day and NO MORE FOOD THAN THE FISH CAN EAT IN FIVE MINUTES! If they don't come up and eat right away, wait another day to feed, Food will help cycle a pond but over feeding can cause opposite effects, Right now you want the pond to stabalize and balance. Plants are a big needed right now, I would like to see you add about 3-4 times as many plants as you have now. so check local nurseries, craigslistings, pond stores or even pet stores, Home depot and Lowes. suggestions that can be added, water Lettuce, anacharis,Taro, iris, penny wort, parrots feather, any aquatic plant with a good growing root system would work great but may need to be planted in pot with clean pea gravel, These take up space. This is why I like water lettuce so much, they absorb ammonia, nitrites and nitrates, add oxygen and no need to add anything like pots and gravel and such. For your application this would be the #1 plant of choice.

 

[lenny jewell]

not trying to be funny here but if the ammonia is low , wouldn't putting a couple of fish in it raise it quickly ?
Also check your tap water it maybe chlorine free , and remove the filters let the water stand (if no fish in there ) for a day , check it then see if the filters are removing the ammonia .. having said this i am presuming that you have low ammonia and being that i just glanced at the page the info i just gave might be just a stinky brain fart and completely useless , i do know that these guys here know what they're doing as they saved my butt a few times ... so if i said anything wrong here please ANYONE feel free to correct me

 

[LuLu]

Fishin... When I started the pond, the water temps were in the 50's. All I did was dechlorinate and let it run. I didn't start adding the Fritz-Zyme until the water temps rose above 60. I should be getting good flow through the media because when I opened the filter box to rinse the foam pads (in pond water) on Saturday while cleaning up algae, below the pads, in the media... there was also algae. After rinsing the pads, I put them back without disturbing the current media that was underneath, other than adding rinsed (in pond water) ceramic media. I originally had lettuce in the very beginning, but I think it was too cold, they slowly died and ended up in my compost pile. I was going to try again with lettuce and hyacinth anyway, looks like now is the time! I'll also look into getting an airstone. The rocks are definitely clean, I'll smooth them back out. There's only enough to cover the bottom.

My tap water only contains 0.5 ammonia, tested this last month. I have some water garden planting media, due to having a mini water lily in a tub on the deck. It's supposed to have Microbe Lift in it. Could I pot the plants in that? Or should I stick with pea gravel? There's currently nothing around the roots of the current plants, they're just weighted on the bottom. I already have a small taro planted nearby I could uproot and repot into the pond if needed. Plants, plants, plants... especially lettuce... got it.

Once the levels drop sufficiently, I'll re-add the fish. I don't feed them much anyway, so they'll definitely be ok with every other day.

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR ALL THE ADVICE!! I'll keep ya posted.

Happy ponding,
~Lu

 

[lenny jewell]

i dont know if you have a pet smart in your area , but i find they have a wide selection of aquatic and semi aquatic plants reasonably priced , i live in a warmer climate , the plants i added grew immediately , they look mahhhhvelous btw lol ... the water lily was planted 3 days ago as soon as i added it the water clouded up and the algae went nuts , but no smell so i am thinking its all good , it also rained very hard here for a day or two , that i am thinking stirred everything up, it was crystal clear before the rain , i shall let it settle and see what happens ...

 

[lenny jewell]

wait i am in Mo too hahahah
where in Mo are you ?

 

[HTH]

After some thinking I realized if you had not tried to forced fishless cycling you would be up and running by now.

My advice is to take a step back and forget about fishless cycling. I wish I had suggest this first.

Just setup the pond with as many plants as you want. (perhaps you are there) Then add a 2 or 3 two inch goldfish. They will be a small bioload and the system will adjust to them with no water changes or jumping through hoops.

Watch the ammonia and nitrite levels. If the levels do not rise after 10 days of feeding add 2 more. After a few weeks and you quite sure there is no problems with the water you can add a few more fish.

At this point one is tempted to think that dumping in stuff from a bottle will cut the time down. I suggest you let nature do it for you. Note that your pond bottom and sides may be capable of supporting a good percentage of the bacteria required by the pond. Please do not do more the suck loose particles from the bottom. I expect the bacteria also exist on plant roots and any other submerged surface. It even grows in the plumbing used on ponds.

A word about fish selection. First don't buy feeders. They are shipped 100's to a bag with little water. By the time you get them they are mostly all ill. It is like inoculating your pond with trouble. It is common practice for stores to pull the better looking ones and place them in another tank for a bit more money. Buy your fish form a pet store that know fish and goldfish in particular. A garden center might be ok. Even better get them from another person with a healthy pond! In either case you will fall in love with whatever fish you buy, for that reason alone there is little chance of upgrading to nicer ones at that point.

I keep waiting for the magical day that I'll wake to find no nitrates, and then maybe even no ammonia as well, but am starting to believe it's always just going to be a water garden...

You should be looking for zero ammonia. In a cycled pond the nitrate level will rise with time unless you have sufficient plant roots to use it up. If levels get too high it will cause green water or string algae.

 

[lenny jewell]

any dyes in that cotton T shirt?