New Koi Owner-Please Help

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Also, with that amount of salt, I can't imagine any plants living, and you NEED plants to help keep the water clear, to shelter from the sun, and to oxygenate the pond, although your waterfalls and aeration seems to be plenty at this time. I never use salt unless there is a problem with a fish that salt can help heal them, but since I have tons of plants, salt would be used extremely sparingly. My pond is over 4,000 gal, and I would never use 2 cups in it. :)
And, you said you have a thermometer, but don't know how to read it? It should have F and C sides, just read the F side and report what the temperature is in the pond. Any type of thermometer can be used, just hold it under water long enough that it no longer changes the number and then read it. :)
 
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please forum members help. i added 2 pounds of baking soda into the pond to raise the ph since it was 5.0 at 7 am this morning. now te water tests 9.0 and possibly more. i am scared that this rapid change will kill these poor fish that had been through so much . please advice again as for what to do to hopefully let them survive through such a drastic ph swing.
 
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Where in NJ are you and what pond store are you consulting? There's a place near me (Whitehouse Station) - the owner is very knowledgeable and helpful. Let me know if you want the info if you might be in the area.
 
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i am in manalapan 07762 . i am consulting pond department people at brock farms on route 34. their worker who claimed to have a degree in ecology did the water exchange etc. additional worker prescribed paracide green for my fish upon seeing them. he however admitted that whatever he knows he learned on the job and via consulting the web. could you please provide me with info re the place you use.
tx a lot
 
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As I said in response to your email...

Google "pond pH buffering", read, learn, then do. Often people go to forums to get a fast, easy solution...bad idea.

I have no idea if your fish will live through this, they might. Depends on what shape they were already in. I do know this for sure, if you keep doing stuff based on what people tell you without understanding the basics you will kill your fish at some point.

I don't do phone consultation any more because it rarely helped people.

In your case you the biggest risk is ammonia. At 5.0 pH ammonia isn't toxic to fish, at 9.0 it's very toxic. So if you had any ammonia level you added that problem to the sudden pH change.

The good news is just because you measured 5.0 pH once doesn't mean a few hours later it wasn't 8.0. Water that isn't pH buffered means the pH swings up and down. If these was the case then adding the baking soda and increasing pH probably didn't do more harm.

You measure KH to know whether more baking soda is need. The 2 lbs per 1000 gal is just a starting point, a good starting point if KH is very low. Once you have KH in a good range you have to keep measuring and adding or you get another pH crash. My point is...this isn't difficult, but it isn't as easy as picking a few things out of a forum. You actually have to have some basic understanding.

i am in manalapan 07762 . i am consulting pond department people at brock farms on route 34. their worker who claimed to have a degree in ecology did the water exchange etc. additional worker prescribed paracide green for my fish upon seeing them. he however admitted that whatever he knows he learned on the job and via consulting the web. could you please provide me with info re the place you use.
tx a lot
Here the basic problem...and it's always true. When I take my car in to be fixed the mechanic gives me some options. I know nothing about cars...how in the world can I possibly make any kind of rational decision? Sounds good to me? Cheapest?

When asking for fish keeping advice it's the same problem. I've seen it many times, maybe 95% of time, the poster will choose the worst possible advice or pick bits and pieces of advice and make things worst. My absolute best advice...and almost never followed...is to do nothing. Fish stand a much better chance on their own rather than having cure after cure thrown at them by an owner frantic to cure something they don't understand. Learn first...do later.

Where to learn...
Forums are a good place to get subjects to research, but really bad places to learn. In forums you get opinions..."well I did this and my fish are fine"...meaningless beyond maybe a subject to research further, but rarely are any actual details given to research. Without basic understanding a person has no hope of telling good advice from bad. And bad advice is almost always simple, easy to understand, sounds kind of logical...so the deck is stacked against you. The only way bad advice can survive in forums is if it sounds good. There are serious forums like Koiphen. A good place to read but not so much to just post questions without having done any research. They tire of "My water is green what do I do?" questions. Most pond forums are more of a social or entertainment deal. Really great for what they are.

It takes a lot of reading and an ability to weed out bad info. And maybe 80-90% of the info out there is really bad, fish killing bad. It wold be great if there was just a few good sources, but the internet has done away with that concept. Now anyone who can type is an "expert": The more you know the easier it will be to spot BS. If the info you find is difficult to read it's probably a good source. Never trust one source. Compare and research differences. Understand the why, then you'll understand the doing.

Basics...
Understand there are different kinds of ponds. Many things will appear contradictory otherwise and make no sense. For example, plants in a Koi pond is generally considered a very bad thing by high end keepers. While in a Water Garden plants are considered essential. Contradictory if you just pull that one point out of text. If you instead understand why each source is say bad or good you'll understand they're both saying the exact same thing but for different goals.

Google "pond pH buffering". Pretty easy subject. Stay away from all sites that say egg shell, plaster, oyster shell can be used for pH buffering...they don't understand anything. Oyster shell have benefits, but not for pH buffering. Stick with sites that use baking soda. When you understand why knowing a KH level means you don't have to know pH level you're probably understand pH buffering.

Google "pond ammonia". After you understand where ammonia comes from, how to test it, and how it's removed from the pond you're ready. For an advanced topic Google "pond ammonium vs ammonia". When you understand ammonia toxicity is effected by temp and pH you'll know more than 99% of pond "experts".

IMO that covers most of what you need to keep fish alive. Seriously.

There are a bunch of videos done by Dr Johnson at Koi Beginner that I think are a very good starting point. And again, if you watch every video a couple of times, research some of what is said so you really understand it, you'll know far more than almost any "expert". I don't agree 100% with every tiny point Dr Johnson makes, which doesn't mean I'm right and he's wrong, but I think it's a great resource.
 
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Shorter answer...stopping asking people how to fix things and instead ask how things work. For example "What can cause my pond pH to be 5.0?" rather than "How do I increase pH?"
 
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Getsisfam I sent you a message. Not sure the place I use is going to be able to help you or if you want to give them a try after the mess I came home to today but I sent you their number. Good luck with your pond. I've only had mine for a couple years now and am still trying to figure things out through trial and error so I don't have any advice to give. Thankfully my fish have remained happy and healthy but if I could figure a way to keep my dogs from walking across the falls and dislodging rocks or wading in the pond and ripping the liner, I'd be in good shape! :)
 
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OK, Getsisfam, there you have it. Waterbug has given you lots of info to look into, no real fix, but his biggest sentence is agreeable with most .... when in doubt, do NOTHING! Just stop and wait and see what happens. You're getting too excited and causing more problems than you are finding solutions. And, as you said, the PH was 5.0 one morning, but then somewhat higher a few hours later, so he's right, the PH may have been swinging back and forth, up and down, and might have been up at 9 previously as well! So, don't worry so much about it.
Another thing that most newbies will have a hard time with is not feeding your fish. In your case, if you cleaned off all the sides and bottom and rocks, there may be no food sources for the fish, but in a cycled healthy pond, there is enough food source for the fish with no extra food from humans. I feed my fish because I LIKE to feed them, not because they NEED the food. I enjoy watching them eat. When people say they toss in a "handful", I have to stop and think how much I actually feed. When I grab it at a pinch at a time, I wonder how many pinches add up to a handful. LOL
And, I really agree with Waterbug that everyone is an expert on the web now. I hate it as well! YOu can't google something and find the correct answer, not all the time. You will get everyone's opinion that has been put on the web. So, unless you learn the whys and ifs and how comes, you will never know if the info is correct, or just mumbo jumbo.
So, maybe the best piece of advise for right now is to stop doing anything. No more water changes, no more adding chemicals, no more treatments. Stop and watch and wait. If something bad is in your pond, and the fish die, then you will start over. In the meantime, give the fish a break and let them get used to the newest water they are living in. Kind of like putting us in a house, getting used to AC, then turning on the heat, then kicking the AC back on, but this time really cold. Uncomfortable, we will get colds, sneezes, maybe pneumonia, but we will probably live. Let them get used to what they have right now and see if they don't start healing on their own. But, keep us posted!
Thanks, Waterbug, for your knowledge again. You have a unique way of saying the obvious, even when you have to say it more than once. I appreciated it when I was learning, that's why I pushed for you to respond again. Sometimes it takes hearing it a second or maybe third time to drill it into our heads to read and pay attention. :)
 
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Shalom, just reading your post, and I agree with the above. FYI, what I do is I keep a block of plaster of paris in the skimmer with the pump I've having been doing it for several years, I do not use any chemicals(to date), I don't do water changes just top off as needed( except for yesterday when I forgot to turn off the hose, wife discovered it this morning, water, water, water everywhere so my 600G pond I presume now has a 100% change), have lots of plants and what I believe to be a greatly oversized filter, but like your pond, I'm extremely Koi heavy for 600+G pond with about a 27" Koi and 4 others over 20".

Sounds like you've had so much change, that letting the pond settle down, which is hard to do when you have fish die, is worth heeding.

Wishing you the best,

McKool
 
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Plaster of paris is the perfect example for doing research. Very often said to be great for buffering pH. You can't throw a dead cat without hitting someone who says plaster of paris is great stuff.

So I Googled "plaster of paris as ph buffer". First up was a 7 year old Koiphen thread that describes in detail why plaster of paris isn't good for a pond or at least a very poor buffer. Lots of details that can be double checked. Many of the remaining Google hits say plaster of paris is great...that's all they say...it's great. They don't say why or how it works...because they have no clue. They just read some place that it was good and repeated it like a trained parrot. Easier to consume than a lot of bah, bah, bah so that's the most popular advice.
 
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Shalom - Don't believe I ever said plaster of paris was "great stuff", just commented what I have done for FYI over the years and so far I've not had any issues with sick koi even with the forgetting to turn off the water-happened more than once so time now for a garden hose timer.
 

sissy

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gosh why do those places have to just screw things up more just to sell you every thing in the world that will kill your fish ,so sad .I have watched ponders come on here all gung ho and then they spend tons of money doing a pond and the fish die and they give up and we never see them on here again .It is simple water and fish and then you add in those so called experts at pet stores and I can even say some pond stores trying to make a buck .so sad /mother nature does it and does not use chemicals .Meds are different when it comes to sick fish .But ph needs no fussing and sure not all those chemicals .I think to much panic sets in and then you end up making it worse .
 
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Shalom - I never felt comfortable with any of the pond shops that have sprung up and gone away in my local area, though there are some Koi oriented shops( way out of my budget.) All what I have done is been from forums and probably more Divine Intervention than anythinbg else. Maybe the Dvine definition of patience should be "ponding".

In retrospect, I started using some chemicals, and then weaned down to barley extract and has used some Koi-enzme sporadically
and this year only a little barley extract, mainly in the small preformed pond for some algae assistance. I do believe in good aereation, lots of plants, and lots of filtration - so my 2-cents for whatever it is worth.

Even with the use of chemicals, I'd speculate that we just don't want to wait on nature to take it's course, so add another chemical.

So knocking on wood; we've lost 3 fish, except those by predators, in about 10 years.
 

sissy

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I used to use barley extract until I learned on here all it really is is peroxide so 88 cents verses what ever .I used to listen to the hype but could not afford the hype so found just over filtering works best and in 8 years only lost one fish that jumped out as i did not know shubbies would do that .Live and learn .I think simple is better and water movement in a pond adds more oxygen which cuts down on problems too and find my fish really love swimming in the current caused by it


 

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