Need info on feeding koi and goldfish in winter, please.

[Usman]

Yes, and this is why I question everything I was told about koi and goldfish these past few weeks, re winter and feeding. Every now and then you hear about koi and goldfish being released into our BC Interior lakes (you hear of more instances in the coastal regions) and how they multiply and take over trout populations. Trout are near and dear to the hearts of people in BC and the Ministry will kill off an entire lake of fish, both trout and the invasive species to rid the lake of them. We panic up here if the lake contains a tributary in which the invasive fish can travel to other bodies of water.

What is ridiculous though, is that when we built our trout pond, we not only had to apply for a license to posses them, but we also had to jump through many hoops to be approved for that license. Once of which is that we had to take pictures of our property, showing that there were no ditches or streams of any type for the trout to escape and travel into nearby lakes and rivers. This is all fine and good because we don’t want any disease carrying trout getting into the system and affecting the wild trout stock, but why the heck wouldn’t the same license rules apply to coarse fish, especially when we worry so much about them raising havoc with our wild populations?

The point is, people seem to take too much care in raising them in private ponds while the ones that are released to live in all kinds of ‘un natural to koi’ conditions - and survive long harsh winters in lakes that experience early ice up in up to -40 Celcius weather, and where no human is around to withhold their diet of aquatic insects, snails, trout fry, algae etc. - fare extremely well. It seems that they are perfectly capable of monitoring their own diet.

As for the bio waste ... there are a couple of cattails in pots in the trough and the pots contain some scuds that are excellent at cleaning up any waste while also providing food for the fish. They don't breed as heavily in winter as they do in the warmer months but they would supply a limited supply of food (as well as the algae).

Here is a short article on the invasion of koi in one of our interior lakes ...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/quesnel-dragon-lake-trout-endangered-by-koi-infestation-1.2945523

interesting topic, very good points , i have read mixed views too , I dont think we can compare natural habitat and behaviour with our ponds , it would be unfair .. the depth , food variety , temperature , space to swim , fish load per acre etc al plays its role on fish behaviour , i think in wild they will swim many feet per day to consume food and eat more , in pond hardly any movement comparetively.

do u think reason is when we raise them in controled environment they are totaly dependent on our food , if they want to eat lesser calory diet like plants algae or small insect , we cant provide them choice nor they are used to adapting in our ponds hense they eat high protein food and the fish load is very much on the edge thats why we use filter to compunsate it nd in winter cycle is even weaker , in wild , per acre fish is very less so the environment can never get overloaded , i dont know how harmfull it is as hobiest or experts say but i do know they eat less or uninterested in winters , its like if we give them in summer even double food at once , it will be harmfull too .

 

[Usman]

Yes, and this is why I question everything I was told about koi and goldfish these past few weeks, re winter and feeding. Every now and then you hear about koi and goldfish being released into our BC Interior lakes (you hear of more instances in the coastal regions) and how they multiply and take over trout populations. Trout are near and dear to the hearts of people in BC and the Ministry will kill off an entire lake of fish, both trout and the invasive species to rid the lake of them. We panic up here if the lake contains a tributary in which the invasive fish can travel to other bodies of water.

What is ridiculous though, is that when we built our trout pond, we not only had to apply for a license to posses them, but we also had to jump through many hoops to be approved for that license. Once of which is that we had to take pictures of our property, showing that there were no ditches or streams of any type for the trout to escape and travel into nearby lakes and rivers. This is all fine and good because we don’t want any disease carrying trout getting into the system and affecting the wild trout stock, but why the heck wouldn’t the same license rules apply to coarse fish, especially when we worry so much about them raising havoc with our wild populations?

The point is, people seem to take too much care in raising them in private ponds while the ones that are released to live in all kinds of ‘un natural to koi’ conditions - and survive long harsh winters in lakes that experience early ice up in up to -40 Celcius weather, and where no human is around to withhold their diet of aquatic insects, snails, trout fry, algae etc. - fare extremely well. It seems that they are perfectly capable of monitoring their own diet.

As for the bio waste ... there are a couple of cattails in pots in the trough and the pots contain some scuds that are excellent at cleaning up any waste while also providing food for the fish. They don't breed as heavily in winter as they do in the warmer months but they would supply a limited supply of food (as well as the algae).

Here is a short article on the invasion of koi in one of our interior lakes ...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/quesnel-dragon-lake-trout-endangered-by-koi-infestation-1.2945523

there can be many factors beside temp adaptiveness that determine what is invasive specie , some fishes are invasive geneticaly there growth and reproduction is faster then the competitors and high dispersal ,they eat more and more types of food or eating same food that which of there competitors or eating food that no one is eating , and other type is how a specific environment is providing them more oportunity then others or they are eating others eggs or fishes and have less predators and abiility to adapt . there can be some places where trout is called invasive and can b some places where carp is said to b invasive . I think both are in invasive list , depends on environment which can turn out to be invasive or effect others more .
some places ban fishes just because of disseases or parasites too , in Aus u cant keep koi , except west

 

[sissy]

When my does ice up i switch on the pond heater and that opens it up pretty good .But like I said I do not get long really cold long winters .So not sure about those type conditions .But colleen in Canada does get even worse weather and she seems to have no problems

 

[budgenator]

The text book answer is to feed regular food until the water temper drops below 60F or 15C, then switch over to a wheat-germ based winter food untill the water is below 50F or 10C, then stop feeding. My suspicion is if it's too cold for them to eat they won't eat, but anything they don't eat is going to slowly rot on the bottom; and if they want to eat they'll find something whether it thrown in by you or grew in the water.

 

[mgmine]

"What is ridiculous though, is that when we built our trout pond, we not only had to apply for a license to posses them, but we also had to jump through many hoops to be approved for that license."

Yep we have the same mentality here in the form of the EPA. Everything is regulated even if it's only a summer puddle that will be gone in a few months. When I installed my pond the inspector had to go to his boss to determine if I had to get a license from the EPA.


"The point is, people seem to take too much care in raising them in private ponds while the ones that are released to live in all kinds of ‘un natural to koi’ conditions - and survive long harsh winters in lakes that experience early ice up in up to -40 Celcius weather, and where no human is around to withhold their diet of aquatic insects, snails, trout fry, algae etc. - fare extremely well. It seems that they are perfectly capable of monitoring their own diet."

Yep again. I've mentioned this a few times in the last few months. It seems that so much time is spent on worrying about the fish that they become a problem and not a pleasure. My advise has been to just let them be. Forget testing and above all forget all the remedies that are found in the internet. Let nature take care of the fish. As I pointed out in one thread, what are you going to do if your fish do get sick (or in your opinion are sick because you read something that seems to confirm it), are you going to take them to the vet? Fish die and I'm convinced that many of them die because the owner tried something that they read on line.

By the way your have a beautiful pond.

 

[sissy]

To many people get fish and get tired of them and release them into park ponds or lakes or streams .

 

[Mmathis]

To many people get fish and get tired of them and release them into park ponds or lakes or streams .

Same with other kinds of pets, as well -- dogs, cats...... Sad!

 

[sissy]

how true we see pets here left in foreclosed houses ,such a heart breaking thing to see .

 

[Georgi]

interesting topic, very good points , i have read mixed views too , I dont think we can compare natural habitat and behaviour with our ponds , it would be unfair .. the depth , food variety , temperature , space to swim , fish load per acre etc al plays its role on fish behaviour , i think in wild they will swim many feet per day to consume food and eat more , in pond hardly any movement comparetively.

do u think reason is when we raise them in controled environment they are totaly dependent on our food , if they want to eat lesser calory diet like plants algae or small insect , we cant provide them choice nor they are used to adapting in our ponds hense they eat high protein food and the fish load is very much on the edge thats why we use filter to compunsate it nd in winter cycle is even weaker , in wild , per acre fish is very less so the environment can never get overloaded , i dont know how harmfull it is as hobiest or experts say but i do know they eat less or uninterested in winters , its like if we give them in summer even double food at once , it will be harmfull too .

I'm so sorry everyone - I never received notifications of any of your posts! I was getting them before but not the most recent ones. Weird.

Anyway ... I'm new to this koi/goldfish type pond type idea so there are obviously a lot of things I don't know, but what you say makes a lot of sense to me. And, in my opinion, I don't think we have to keep koi ponds so sterile and overly maintained. It seems to me that that is what can cause so many problems, including disease.

I have often read where we are warned not to put rocks or gravel in ponds, yet that is the first thing we did many years ago when we first built our trout pond. It only made sense to us that, yes, bacteria will grow within the rocks but also, there is a lot of good bacteria that you absolutely want in the pond. So, by stocking the pond with cattails and aquatic insects, especially scuds, and running a very good filter, and oxygenating well, everything should take care of itself.

Stocking scuds works in two ways - they provide food for the fish (any kind of fish), and they eat poop and debris. They breed so prolifically that it's almost impossible for the fish to deplete them as food. The scuds not only provide food but they also provide foraging opportunities. As any animal expert will tell you, all animals need to forage - for exercise and health, and to keep boredom at bay. Rather than scattering food for the fish to cruise around for a few minutes, gorging themselves, they are staying healthy and fit and entertained by hunting for their food, just like in the wild. Our trout are busy all day long, seeking out the scuds that hide in the algae and in and under rocks and any other cranny they can find. Sometimes the scuds are free swimming, especially while breeding, but they understand they are prey so they basically try to stay hidden. And, while the fish are eating them and pooping out the remains, the millions of other scuds are eating all the waste. Sure, if you WAY overstock your pond, scuds (along with other insects) could be depleted but that would be just plain stupid, right?

In sterile koi ponds, people are vigilant about keeping the pond absolutely algae free whereas, we encourage it. It is food for both fish and insects, it is habitat for insects and other water critters, including frogs, it aids in keeping the water cool and provides protection for fish to hide from predators. You don't want the algae to choke off your pond and waterfall but there is a wonderful balance that is truly beneficial.

By keeping fish habitat as natural as possible and resisting the urge to kill off everything that is actually beneficial to our ponds, it will provide the healthiest environment for the fish. But then, anybody who wants a pristine pond, would never allow dirt and algae to exist. But you know the best part about striving for a natural pond? You are not a prisoner of it! You can go away on holidays for as long as you want because you don't have to feed them every day. At the most, you just need someone to check in case of power failures and make sure pumps, filters and aerators are working properly.

So, while we can't "compare natural habitat and behaviour with our ponds" we can work at building a more natural habitat that will take care of itself for the most part. Even in small ponds. What we did in the last couple of weeks is fill a couple of pots with rocks, algae, dirt etc. and then empty out all the live scuds that get caught up in the pump and filter, and dumped them in the pots and placed them in the stock trough that is temporarily housing the koi and goldfish. We decided that we will give them the opportunity to eat if they are hungry enough to search out food, and since the koi has spend 3 months in the trout pond, he will lead by example with the foraging for scuds. Our water temperatures (in the trough) the last couple of weeks has been fluctuating between 44 and 58 F so while today is 44 and I have not seen them moving around (I can watch them beneath my dining room window), they are extremely active in the afternoons if the water goes above 50. We will get a couple of days of cold weather, or below zero (celcius) at night, then a few days of warm weather. So with the weather changes, they are free to eat when they feel up to it and in the meantime, the scuds are keeping the water clean if they do. We've only had a bubbler going the past couple of weeks but we're expecting our new filter/aerator to arrive any day.

Just as an aside ... as I mentioned, the trough is situated below a window so I spend a lot of time staring down into it to watch the fish. 3 of the goldfish are about 2 - 3 inches long and one is about 4 inches long while, Chaz (koi) is about 6 inches. It is interesting to learn their different personalities.

A couple of days ago I watched as little Orange had grabbed a stringy piece of a twig that was attached to the bucket of debris, held it in his mouth and was shaking his head like a dog playing tug-o-war. It kind of surprised me because, unlike trout, these guys don't have teeth to hold on with. Orange is the most outgoing of the goldfish and was the welcoming committee when we introduce our koi, Chaz, into the trough. He's Chaz's shadow.

Blanche, the little white goldfish, is the goofiest. She flits around the pond constantly, mostly checking on the other fish to see what they are doing or eating, as if she might be missing something should she strike out on her own. When I walked up to the trough unexpectedly yesterday, she took one look at me, turned and did a face plant straight into one of the pots and basically backed up, shook it off and then scooted between the boulders to hide. What a dweeb.

Chaz could care less about anybody, or anything, he's just a big lumbering brute who swims into everybody else and spends a lot of time with his head in the dirt. He doesn't quite get it about the flakes that I give to the goldfish now and then. He will come up to grab a piece with his mouth but completely miss it. For a while I thought he might be blind, but no, he's just dense.

Splotch (white with an orange splotch on his back) is the most food driven and hits the surface food like a trout after a fly on the surface. And Seven is the orange with the black all down his back so that he blends perfectly into his surroundings and is mostly only noticed when he darts out briefly for a quick bite to eat.

Gotta love 'em.

 

[Georgi]

When my does ice up i switch on the pond heater and that opens it up pretty good .But like I said I do not get long really cold long winters .So not sure about those type conditions .But colleen in Canada does get even worse weather and she seems to have no problems

We tried one of those pond de icers many years ago, on our trout pond, and it just couldn't really keep up with all the ice and our cold winters. They are extremely expensive to run 24 hours a day for 6 months too.

As I mentioned before, I think, on our big pond, we have a box that is attached to the bridge and sits just inside the water with a light bulb inside to keep the inside warm enough to keep the water open, as sell as the aerator that is pushing warm water into the surface of the water in that area. It really works well and only the price of a 40 watt light bulb. We will do something similar, but on a smaller scale, with the goldfish/koi trough through this winter.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I'm so sorry everyone - I never received notifications of any of your posts! I was getting them before but not the most recent ones. Weird.

Anyway ... I'm new to this koi/goldfish type pond type idea so there are obviously a lot of things I don't know, but what you say makes a lot of sense to me. And, in my opinion, I don't think we have to keep koi ponds so sterile and overly maintained. It seems to me that that is what can cause so many problems, including disease.

I have often read where we are warned not to put rocks or gravel in ponds, yet that is the first thing we did many years ago when we first built our trout pond. It only made sense to us that, yes, bacteria will grow within the rocks but also, there is a lot of good bacteria that you absolutely want in the pond. So, by stocking the pond with cattails and aquatic insects, especially scuds, and running a very good filter, and oxygenating well, everything should take care of itself.

Stocking scuds works in two ways - they provide food for the fish (any kind of fish), and they eat poop and debris. They breed so prolifically that it's almost impossible for the fish to deplete them as food. The scuds not only provide food but they also provide foraging opportunities. As any animal expert will tell you, all animals need to forage - for exercise and health, and to keep boredom at bay. Rather than scattering food for the fish to cruise around for a few minutes, gorging themselves, they are staying healthy and fit and entertained by hunting for their food, just like in the wild. Our trout are busy all day long, seeking out the scuds that hide in the algae and in and under rocks and any other cranny they can find. Sometimes the scuds are free swimming, especially while breeding, but they understand they are prey so they basically try to stay hidden. And, while the fish are eating them and pooping out the remains, the millions of other scuds are eating all the waste. Sure, if you WAY overstock your pond, scuds (along with other insects) could be depleted but that would be just plain stupid, right?

In sterile koi ponds, people are vigilant about keeping the pond absolutely algae free whereas, we encourage it. It is food for both fish and insects, it is habitat for insects and other water critters, including frogs, it aids in keeping the water cool and provides protection for fish to hide from predators. You don't want the algae to choke off your pond and waterfall but there is a wonderful balance that is truly beneficial.

By keeping fish habitat as natural as possible and resisting the urge to kill off everything that is actually beneficial to our ponds, it will provide the healthiest environment for the fish. But then, anybody who wants a pristine pond, would never allow dirt and algae to exist. But you know the best part about striving for a natural pond? You are not a prisoner of it! You can go away on holidays for as long as you want because you don't have to feed them every day. At the most, you just need someone to check in case of power failures and make sure pumps, filters and aerators are working properly.

So, while we can't "compare natural habitat and behaviour with our ponds" we can work at building a more natural habitat that will take care of itself for the most part. Even in small ponds. What we did in the last couple of weeks is fill a couple of pots with rocks, algae, dirt etc. and then empty out all the live scuds that get caught up in the pump and filter, and dumped them in the pots and placed them in the stock trough that is temporarily housing the koi and goldfish. We decided that we will give them the opportunity to eat if they are hungry enough to search out food, and since the koi has spend 3 months in the trout pond, he will lead by example with the foraging for scuds. Our water temperatures (in the trough) the last couple of weeks has been fluctuating between 44 and 58 F so while today is 44 and I have not seen them moving around (I can watch them beneath my dining room window), they are extremely active in the afternoons if the water goes above 50. We will get a couple of days of cold weather, or below zero (celcius) at night, then a few days of warm weather. So with the weather changes, they are free to eat when they feel up to it and in the meantime, the scuds are keeping the water clean if they do. We've only had a bubbler going the past couple of weeks but we're expecting our new filter/aerator to arrive any day.

Just as an aside ... as I mentioned, the trough is situated below a window so I spend a lot of time staring down into it to watch the fish. 3 of the goldfish are about 2 - 3 inches long and one is about 4 inches long while, Chaz (koi) is about 6 inches. It is interesting to learn their different personalities.

A couple of days ago I watched as little Orange had grabbed a stringy piece of a twig that was attached to the bucket of debris, held it in his mouth and was shaking his head like a dog playing tug-o-war. It kind of surprised me because, unlike trout, these guys don't have teeth to hold on with. Orange is the most outgoing of the goldfish and was the welcoming committee when we introduce our koi, Chaz, into the trough. He's Chaz's shadow.

Blanche, the little white goldfish, is the goofiest. She flits around the pond constantly, mostly checking on the other fish to see what they are doing or eating, as if she might be missing something should she strike out on her own. When I walked up to the trough unexpectedly yesterday, she took one look at me, turned and did a face plant straight into one of the pots and basically backed up, shook it off and then scooted between the boulders to hide. What a dweeb.

Chaz could care less about anybody, or anything, he's just a big lumbering brute who swims into everybody else and spends a lot of time with his head in the dirt. He doesn't quite get it about the flakes that I give to the goldfish now and then. He will come up to grab a piece with his mouth but completely miss it. For a while I thought he might be blind, but no, he's just dense.

Splotch (white with an orange splotch on his back) is the most food driven and hits the surface food like a trout after a fly on the surface. And Seven is the orange with the black all down his back so that he blends perfectly into his surroundings and is mostly only noticed when he darts out briefly for a quick bite to eat.

Gotta love 'em.

Ah! A kindred spirit.