Need advice: sleeper pond with viewing window

[GBBUDD]

Ah thanks for the home town info . I have not seen anything saying it had failed. @Thanks @Lisak1 I'll stop sharing that video. If I remember correctly they had the glass on the rubber I think that maybe the weaknes you can't put a lot of pressure on glass.

 

[brokensword]

Ah thanks for the home town info . I have not seen anything saying it had failed. @Thanks @Lisak1 I'll stop sharing that video. If I remember correctly they had the glass on the rubber I think that maybe the weaknes you can't put a lot of pressure on glass.

just for reference; my dad was a bricklayer and understood concrete too, so built himself 4 large aquariums out of cement in the basement. They all were reinforced with re-rod, had angle iron frame cemented in and were in the area of 175-250 gallons each (a far cry from most outdoor above ground ponds!). He built them all interconnected, two above the other two, so the whole structure was unified, and had 12" load-bearing block wall behind them. The windows were approx 4' x 2' each. He used some sort of oil-based caulk/tar (I don't remember exactly but there was no silicone involved) as a sealant between iron angle frame and glass. The entire inside was coated with cement paste, brushed on. I think the glass was 1/2" thick. Been a long time so I'm trying to remember details. The walls of the aquariums were the width of 2x4s and I know he had re-rod bent 90 deg on every corner.

The idea here is, it takes a LOT to hold back water and still keep structural integrity. Since wood is inherently pliable, there's always that risk of failure, ESPECIALLY when you start adding non flexible parts like window frames and glass/plexi. Keeping the structure from moving too much, or, managing such movement, is key. Indoor aquariums don't have the weather to worry about, everything is static and can be controlled. Outdoors, not so much. Were it mine, I'd expect any wood structure to have faults fairly soon after going through a couple seasonal changes. I'd have made it as I described above; all concrete, all reinforced with iron and affix any framework into the structure. And of course, the foundation has to be solid so the winter can't heave it up and down (or if it can, the whole platform has to move as a unit but I'd just dig a footing below such frost lines and go from there).

I once had an argument with Waterbug re the waterproofing of said aquariums (that my dad built) with he maintaining not possible, even though my dad used these without leakage for a decade and then I took over for another 10. Guess some gotta see it to believe it!

Okies, we return you to our regularly scheduled program...

 

[combatwombat]

I once had an argument with Waterbug

Whatever happened to that guy?

 

[teckpham]

This will be amazing when it's finished! Makes me extremely nervous to think about, but you sure seem to understand all the challenges and have the skills to do the work!

@GBBUDD posted the Aquascape video of their indoor pond with a viewing window. I've seen it and it is amazing... however it did fail and had to be rebuilt. I don't know if they posted a video about the rebuild and what they learned or not.

Hahaha, I am very nervous also. I've spent more time staring at it then actually doing the work lol.

That Aquascape's pond failure now has me thinging again....

 

[combatwombat]

I've spent more time staring at it then actually doing the work lol.

Welcome to the club!

 

[teckpham]

Thank you for posting your experience on this kind of build. Yes, if I have to start it again, I would be doing it with concrete blocks and re-rod like you mentioned.

I think it was my stubbornness and lack of knowledge at the start that got me into this. I have built decking around the backyard and wanted the pond looks to be intergrated into it.

The decking walkpath on the side of the pond will be connecting to this deck area.

Since wood is inherently pliable, there's always that risk of failure, ESPECIALLY when you start adding non flexible parts like window frames and glass/plexi. Keeping the structure from moving too much, or, managing such movement, is key.

From your and @GBBUDD feedbacks, I am trying to make the metal frame and glasses as a single unit so that not much stress is acting on it due to the wood warping. Hence the reinforced concrete base with the metal frame embedded in it. Wood at the top are mainly to stop the frame from bowing.

 

[teckpham]

Welcome to the club!

And then you're wondering why it is taking so long.....

 

[brokensword]

And then you're wondering why it is taking so long.....

nah, we just assume you're related to CW somehow...


It's going to look great, I just hope you don't get issues for a LOOOOOOONNNGGGG time, ya know? The kind of issue you'll have won't be the typical 'ah, I got a leak; what's wrong?' and more 'AHHHHHH---I GOT A LEAK! Lifepreservers, anyone? Anyone? Bueller?'

 

[teckpham]

nah, we just assume you're related to CW somehow...


It's going to look great, I just hope you don't get issues for a LOOOOOOONNNGGGG time, ya know? The kind of issue you'll have won't be the typical 'ah, I got a leak; what's wrong?' and more 'AHHHHHH---I GOT A LEAK! Lifepreservers, anyone? Anyone? Bueller?'





View attachment 144640

Hahahaha, I have already started thinking of getting this one and attach a longer hose so I can stay under longer to fix the leak

 

[GBBUDD]

4x4 or 4x in any horizontal orientation is rather weak. It will suffice for smaller ponds . 4x6 or 6x6 are far superior to hold back water so long as tge 6 inch is in depth. But even still it requires some pins or screws/ nails to tie it all together. If you look at the end of the beam /tie you can see the growth rings of the wood placing those grains opposite of each other makes the wood far stronger as well.in this regard you want the growth rings to point at the center of the pond or away from on the horizontal. While lag bolts and screws are great. Drilling and driving rebar pins is the strongest. Lay out the first two courses.. drill them out with a bit just smaller then the rebar +5 at a minimum. Drill through the two layers and drive the pins a good foot and a half deep into the ground this will insure your solid with the soils. Lay the next course staggering the pins/ rebar between where the lower rods are so forth and so on . You already learned about staggering the ends. If you want to help insure your but joints you can always do half lap joints with glue and screws.
Are you planning a window ?

 

[teckpham]

4x4 or 4x in any horizontal orientation is rather weak. It will suffice for smaller ponds . 4x6 or 6x6 are far superior to hold back water so long as tge 6 inch is in depth. But even still it requires some pins or screws/ nails to tie it all together. If you look at the end of the beam /tie you can see the growth rings of the wood placing those grains opposite of each other makes the wood far stronger as well.in this regard you want the growth rings to point at the center of the pond or away from on the horizontal. While lag bolts and screws are great. Drilling and driving rebar pins is the strongest. Lay out the first two courses.. drill them out with a bit just smaller then the rebar +5 at a minimum. Drill through the two layers and drive the pins a good foot and a half deep into the ground this will insure your solid with the soils. Lay the next course staggering the pins/ rebar between where the lower rods are so forth and so on . You already learned about staggering the ends. If you want to help insure your but joints you can always do half lap joints with glue and screws.
Are you planning a window ?

I am very far into my building stage now, so I can't really change how my I can lay down the sleepers.

From this picture.

- The right side is braced by the cubby house. Unsupported section further back will be braced by a decking area that is around 50cm below the pond's water surface and it is around 1.3m in length. This unsupported section might be the weakest point of the design.

- The front area is the bog sitting higher up on a concrete shelve, but will have pretty much the same water level as the pond. It is filled with around 20cm of dirty before the liner go on top. In the middle where the 2 vertical supports of the bog walls are, I will run a piece of hardwood across the top to brace it. This area should not be of a concern.

- The left side, I will build a deck walking path against it to connecting to the house's deck. It will be about 30cm below the water surface of the pond. Under the deck are filled with dirty.

So these 3 sides are reasonably strong enough?

That leave the viewing windows. I am trying to make it as strong as I can as stated in post #36.

 

[brokensword]

I am very far into my building stage now, so I can't really change how my I can lay down the sleepers.

View attachment 144656From this picture.

- The right side is braced by the cubby house. Unsupported section further back will be braced by a decking area that is around 50cm below the pond's water surface and it is around 1.3m in length. This unsupported section might be the weakest point of the design.

- The front area is the bog sitting higher up on a concrete shelve, but will have pretty much the same water level as the pond. It is filled with around 20cm of dirty before the liner go on top. In the middle where the 2 vertical supports of the bog walls are, I will run a piece of hardwood across the top to brace it. This area should not be of a concern.

- The left side, I will build a deck walking path against it to connecting to the house's deck. It will be about 30cm below the water surface of the pond. Under the deck are filled with dirty.

So these 3 sides are reasonably strong enough?

That leave the viewing windows. I am trying to make it as strong as I can as stated in post #36.

teck; is there a reason you're going to have the bog water level similar to the pond? Generally, best to make it at least 6" higher to prevent any wicking AND to have the walls of your bog 6" higher than expected bog water level because as time goes by, it will probably rise, which might make it leak over the sides.

And, just as an idea for the front, you COULD make some buttresses (deco ones, something creative like fake stumps cut lengthwise and then anchored below ground, to either side of the window). Not sure you need this, but it's an idea. There's also concrete or steel you could use as your buttress then figure a way to disguise it with more wood to make it match. Could even sink ground contact sleepers as your buttress. Many options, I think, if it fits with your vision.

 

[teckpham]

teck; is there a reason you're going to have the bog water level similar to the pond? Generally, best to make it at least 6" higher to prevent any wicking AND to have the walls of your bog 6" higher than expected bog water level because as time goes by, it will probably rise, which might make it leak over the sides.

No reason really. My other bog is higher up and I don't have must issue so far with the water level.

I am not planning on growing any hardy plants in it. Most likely just water celery and water cress. They are very easy to thin out. If I put other in, it will be on a mount in the middle to allow water to flow around it.

And, just as an idea for the front, you COULD make some buttresses (deco ones, something creative like fake stumps cut lengthwise and then anchored below ground, to either side of the window). Not sure you need this, but it's an idea. There's also concrete or steel you could use as your buttress then figure a way to disguise it with more wood to make it match. Could even sink ground contact sleepers as your buttress. Many options, I think, if it fits with your vision.

I will take laser readings of the sides before, after and over time to see if any extra supports are needed. Yup, buttress is a good idea

 

[GBBUDD]

You have built quite the extensive raised pond. Its going to be an amazing feature.

The biggest advantage to the raised bog being higher is the water fall or even just a babbling brook coming down into the pond. To me almost the whole idea to building ANY water feature is for these two possibilities. it is not only mesmerizing as the movement of the water but the sunlight dancing on the falls or as the water makes it was down into the pond is second to none. Then you also have to sound there is only one thing more peaceful then falling asleep in you back oasis to the sound of water, and that is waking up to that sound. It can also drown out the sounds of road noise and airplanes. and even the kids next door playing. well ok maybe muffles the kids a little.
Another option to help lessen some of the pressures is to build up the soils on the outside. or even place boulders. And placing corner braces on the top but these could be a real pitta as you chaps say trying to catch a fish with these.

There will be flex without question keep this in mind with leaving material loose so the liner has extra material instead of stretching. Leave folds to allow for this.

One last thought is construction technique we use on temporary supports that will hold a lot of pressures and that is strong backs. you have the brace every four feet from what i can see well you cal place a 2x or larger 3 x to these making a T or even placing two one on each side making a U This will give you an incredible amount of strength and very similar to the buttress suggestion just tighter. You could even cut a design on the outside edge just leave more material toward the bottom as that's where the greater pressures will be

 

[teckpham]

Here is what I am planning for the side with the deck walkway.

Bearers are attaching to the side of the pond at every 120cm.