My fish is in Bad Shape... Help!

[dieselplower]

Nothing but water and a rag. This is only their second year in use.



I haven't but should I do so?

Personally, what I would do is get the fish into warmer water, but slowly. Dont just put it into 70 degree water. What I have done is taken a large amount of the colder water and brought it into the warmer room and let it warm on its own. I took 2 Shubunkins from 34 degree pond and put them into 30 gallons of 34 degree water in a 65 degree room. They lived and seemed fine the whole time, since they warmed slowly. *I am not sure how this will work with an already sick fish*. Since there seems to be little other advice or help coming, I would try to warm it slowly and add one teaspoon of aquarium or canning salt per gallon of water.

 

[MitchM]

I have never used lava rock and probably never will.
I think the term lava rock refers to it's appearance only. I am concerned that it could be an industrial byproduct that could leach out heavy metals.
I don't like the ammonia reading either. The bacterial populations should have established by now so the reading shows 0.
I would like to see what happens after a water change - if your fish behaviour improves.
Good luck.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

What do you think about the bubbles? I have them on my pond right now too.

so do I

Bubbles on the surface of water are not uncommon. The life of one of these bubbles is determined by the surface tension of the water. The higher the surface tension the longer the life of the bubble. Surface tension increases with lower temperatures. Seeing bubbles on the surface of an outside Northern pond this time of year is common.
The reason I commented about the bubbles is that these two stock tanks are inside in, I presume, warmer conditions. With warmer waters, any bubbles should be short-lived, unless dissolved organics are high as MitchM commented earlier.

 

[dieselplower]

Bubbles on the surface of water are not uncommon. The life of one of these bubbles is determined by the surface tension of the water. The higher the surface tension the longer the life of the bubble. Surface tension increases with lower temperatures. Seeing bubbles on the surface of an outside Northern pond this time of year is common.
The reason I commented about the bubbles is that these two stock tanks are inside in, I presume, warmer conditions. With warmer waters, any bubbles should be short-lived, unless dissolved organics are high as MitchM commented earlier.

Thanks Meyer. Earlier in the thread he mentioned his water temperature is 52 degrees.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

When they were brought into these tanks (in October), pond temp was 8 degrees cooler than indoor tanks, and I acclimated them slowly. I mixed pond water into the tanks and had it running for about two weeks before the fish were added.

After re-reading this entire thread several times, the above highlights statement jumped out at me.
I suspect that the fish reacted to an Ammonia spike and possibly an ensuing Nitrite spike on top of the temperature differential.
The idea of mixing the pond water in with the new water was a great idea, but by letting the water sit for 2 weeks without fish allowed most of the nitrifying bacteria to die off due to starvation (no Ammonia). In essence, each stock tank underwent 'new pond syndrome'. The fish that died were probably weaker fish than the others and could not endure the additional stress.
Just an educated guess.

 

[MitchM]

Good catch, Meyer.
A regular dosing of ammonia for a fish-less cycle could have helped there.

 

[addy1]

Interesting I would not have thought of that. But it makes sense, you need pee and poo to feed the bacteria

 

[dieselplower]

Good catch Meyer but I do not believe there would have been much of that bacteria in the water anyway. These bacteria generally live on surfaces rather than float around. Now if the lava rock had been used in a pond filter then maybe... However I would like to post the following article for review, which suggests that the bacteria do not just up and die due to a lack of food.
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=4780

 

[dieselplower]

Here is another link that shows they do not die but rather go dormant until conditions improve. Although he is trying to sell product and doesnt post a source, he does say his research is peer reviewed etc... just dont see the proof...
http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/nitrifying-bacteria-arent-human

 

[addy1]

But DP it is on the internet so it must be true!

he does say his research is peer reviewed etc... just dont see the proof...

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Good catch Meyer but I do not believe there would have been much of that bacteria in the water anyway. These bacteria generally live on surfaces rather than float around. Now if the lava rock had been used in a pond filter then maybe... However I would like to post the following article for review, which suggests that the bacteria do not just up and die due to a lack of food.
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=4780

Here is another link that shows they do not die but rather go dormant until conditions improve. Although he is trying to sell product and doesnt post a source, he does say his research is peer reviewed etc... just dont see the proof...
http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/nitrifying-bacteria-arent-human

This is true...providing there is another 'food' source. Actually, the use of the word 'food' is wrong. As with all life forms, Carbon is basic building block in nutrition. In the case of nitrifying bacteria, the oxidation of Ammonia or Nitrite, as the individual case may be, is only a side catalytic process to the main goal of consuming Carbon.
Anyway, what is stated in these two (2) papers only holds true in the presence of water. This was not the case in JB's plight. With the exception of the pond and source water that he added, every surface of the stock tanks, plumbing, filter and lava rock media were dry and had been for at least a year. The source of nitrifying bacteria in this case, as it is in new ponds, was the water itself. Granted, nitrifying bacteria are more comfortable snugly tucked away in its biofilm home, but because regeneration is an ongoing process within biofilm, sloughing is also an ongoing process. Some of it may partially retain its identity as Floc. The rest of the bacteria become planktonic if only for a brief period of time before it re-attaches and recolonizes a different location. AOB can most certainly achieve motility when required. The first quoted paper states this fact.

 

[Dave 54]

After re-reading this entire thread several times, the above highlights statement jumped out at me.
I suspect that the fish reacted to an Ammonia spike and possibly an ensuing Nitrite spike on top of the temperature differential.
The idea of mixing the pond water in with the new water was a great idea, but by letting the water sit for 2 weeks without fish allowed most of the nitrifying bacteria to die off due to starvation (no Ammonia). In essence, each stock tank underwent 'new pond syndrome'. The fish that died were probably weaker fish than the others and could not endure the additional stress.
Just an educated guess.

Nice QT setup JB well thought through
Though you say your readings are zero now I would say the same thing as Meyer that your fish reacted to an Ammonia spike so it may be an idea in future to cycle the ponds first in future to negate your losses .
One thing I always add to my QT filter before using it is Microbe_lift PL filter pad innoculant gel to help give them that extra boost at the sart or you could add a goldfish to help start the cycle off .
If your taking this fish indoors for treatment raise the temperature of the water at a degree per day with a tank heater until you get to room temperature dont be tempted to do it in one or two steps take your time

Dave