Marine Sea salt in koi pond/Benifcial bacteria

[gouldianguy68]

Hello and welcome!

Just curious, but why did you add 62# of salt?

Koi supplier both of the 2 places i purchase from keep there stock for sale koi at 3ppm sea salt
So that equals 1 cup per 100gal water approx, so i wanted the same water as they were used to

 

[gouldianguy68]

Salt was frequently recommended years ago, but is rarely used these days. Your supplier seems to be out of date with that approach. Salt was used to such an extent that the parasites it was supposed to deter are now immune to it.

Your pond, your fish. Everyone has their own way of doing things, but it seems like a waste of money to me.

The bacteria sold in pet stores is not the type you need for the filtration system. The type you need won't survive being sealed in a bottle, shipped to a store and put on a shelf.

You can buy the right bacteria, but it has to be shipped overnight and is only available from 2 dealers in this country that I am aware of. So it's expensive.

In an established pond you should have plenty of bacteria to handle the fish load, unless of course, it is greatly overstocked and the pond lacks the filtration it needs. And you can't have extra beneficial bacteria. The colony will only grow to the size needed and more than that will die off for lack of food (the ammonia being produced in the pond).

There is also no need to try to add more bacteria when adding more fish. With an established colony and the right conditions of sufficient oxygen, hospitable water temperature, enough food (ammonia), and enough surface area for the bacteria to grow on, that existing beneficial bacteria can double in 24 hours. It won't take iong for it to catch up to the increased needs.

Save yourself some money and stop adding salt and bacteria.

I added the salt because both USA Koi farms told me they keep all there stock for sale tanks at 3ppm sea salt, so I wanted them to be in water there used to, also I was told that especially in butterfly koi, they are approx genetically altered fish, so they said especially Imports have a bit weaker immune system,and when housed in an outdoor pond environment (which they have never been in apperently) all.raised in tubs indoors, they can get disease issue's, parasites, they have never encountered before ect, so they both recommend the salt for first few years of life in pond, and than I could decrease it if I wanted, so just followed there guidance.

 

[gouldianguy68]

Koi supplier both of the 2 places i purchase from keep there stock for sale koi at 3ppm sea salt
So that equals 1 cup per 100gal water approx, so i wanted the same water as they were used to

And also, Imported butterfly koi are genetically altered fish, so like any genetically altered pets, they often have a weaker immune system they said, so they recommend sea salt for first few years of there life in an outdoor setting, which they have never been in, raised almost in scientific cond indoors, so it's a precautions, can dilute water starting after 2 years of life outside, they should be ok? So just followed there lead.

 

[gouldianguy68]

And also, Imported butterfly koi are genetically altered fish, so like any genetically altered pets, they often have a weaker immune system they said, so they recommend sea salt for first few years of there life in an outdoor setting, which they have never been in, raised almost in scientific cond indoors, so it's a precautions, can dilute water starting after 2 years of life outside, they should be ok? So just followed there lead.

Kinda funny, when first released in pond, they didn't know what to think of rocks, gravel!! Almost scared of the walls and floor, and Lilly pads really freaked them out, no following the residence goldfish lead, they are constantly picking thru gravel, and swimming like crazy thru the Lilly pads stems and the aeration bubbles, they love riding them up to top, and getting thrown out of the water!! They seem very happy and FREE!! In there new home!! I get hypnotized watching them!!

 

[WaterGardener]

The reason the fish are more active is not because they are happier. It's because the salt is irritating their skin. That's the purpose of adding salt. It irritates the fish so that they add more slime coat to protect themselves from the irritation. The theory is that it will also protect them from parasites as well.

 

[Mmathis]

Lovely pond!

 

[j.w]

Ok, the original question really was my concern ,if adding salt to a pond causes the beneficial bacteria harm? Because I had some koi "Acting like an Ammonia spike? Because I live in WI, I always try to pack weight on my fish for the long Winters Hybranation. So I'm feeding 4 times a day like I always have in the fall, for 20 years. I tested the water at local fish store, they showed me the results and said "Honestly Troy, we have never seen anyone's pond water test this fantastic!! I was relieved, not an ammonia spike, or PH, or Hardness, Nothing was wrong. So I was bewildered why 3 koi would lay on there side, and I touch them, and they swam away to deep water like nothing was wrong? Than 10 min later back to shallow water laying down? Weird? Today all 3 of them are perfectly fine, swimming around like nothing happened? I was in a panic mode when I asked this group. As far as salt goes? I dunno what to say about it except I bought 40 new koi from 2 different well known koi farms here in the USA. They both told me they keep all there "Stock' for sale koi at 3ppm sea salt
So I wanted the fish to be in the same water there used to, to I added there recommended amount which is 1 cup per 100 gal water, I have to say this, my 100 resident Goldfish, seem to absolutely love this added to the water, they are much more lively, and seem happier? If you can tell that in a fish? I'm pretty attached to my "wet pets" it seems they are very happy, Yes, I do have plants, Lillie's pads, iris clumps, I was told some varieties may or may not be affected at that salt level. I haven't noticed any difference in any plants yet. The pond is 12,500 gal, 32- long x 23w at widest point. I clean my filter pads every 7-10 days, because I had soil erosion on the back wall.that I wasn't aware off, there is 4" pea gravel on bottom, Pond is 25yrs old, My dad and I built it, plumbing is aquascape, bio falls ,skimmer X2 ea. Gravel was put in before we new about "gravel" maintenance!! 25yrs ago, there is way to much for me to physically get it out. So it stays. (Unless any of you will volunteer to help remove it?)
Ok,back on topic, So, the soil in pond, it was drained, I washed gravel for 7 days, pumped out mud water, after 7 days I stopped, had enough!! I said what's left will settle out in filter pads, so I bought those fine pads off of FB for aquariums!! There not that big like 12"x18" i think, so I have 15 pads on top of each of my 2 2" thick reg pond pads. This is the truth!! After 24hrs the water was CLEAR!! No more suspended soils!! The pads work AWSOME for polishing the water, cleaning them is a bit time consuming, hose set on "Jet' and spray off both sides twice until they white and blue again, back into filter, also there is 75# of activated charcoal in filter boxes (finally found it in bulk way CHEAPER!! Works FANTASTIC!! I also use beneficial bacteria designed for real lakes and real earthen ponds, so it super charged. I have used this product for last 15 years, it's amazing what it does!! Buy it from local home and garden store. Bacteria is stabilized in liq form, when added to water it's cloudy for 8-10 min, than dissappear into gravel, and rocks doing it's colonizing thing, although I was told that I'm wasting my money, it works for me very very well, and is available in large gallon cont. So, I'm sorry if I confused everyone? That wasn't my intention at all. And an open forum to talk about all our crazy experiences and ideas is great!! Some use salt, some do not, some use bacteria, some do not, some wouldn't clean the fine pads I have, some would? All in all, I learned alot from everyone THANKYOU! I APPRECIATE THAT! I do have some pics I can post, net over pond is just temporary for fall leaves, and I'm in the blue heron migration path!! So I net the pond in spring and fall, or it would be a sushi buffet, I have.to protect them, and it almost gets 99% of the leaves so i don't have huge organic build up in the spring

Awesome looking ponds and I hope the salt does not hurt your fish or the plants.
Sounds like this one site advises using salt mostly as a treatment not for continuous usage. Although they do show an amount to use if one chooses to use it constantly and yes it can hurt the koi and plants if you use too much they say. https://www.kodamakoifarm.com/benefits-salt-koi-pond-why-should-use-it/

Check out these other sites and their ideas on salt usage: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Do+all+koi+dealers+use+salt+in+their+ponds&t=ffab&atb=v257-1&ia=web

 

[Lisak1]

1. Koi do not need salt. They are freshwater fish. Your koi seller is making sure he's not selling fish with parasites. Constant salt creates parasites who are immune to salt, which won't bother the koi seller because he's constantly moving new fish through his system. Your fish are living in it 24/7. I don't think that's a great idea.

2. Gravel is not a problem in a pond - it's a preference. You're adding all that bacteria - it needs places to colonize. Gravel is a great bacteria colonizer. Some people prefer not to have it for cleaning purposes; I've had gravel in my pond for 14 years with no issue. The secret is a shallow layer - too much will create issues.

3. Add bacteria if you choose to, but know that at some point you're wasting your money. A healthy pond grows harbors its own bacteria just fine.

In a pond your size you can get away with a lot - I would just have for anyone with a 1000 gallon pond to read this and rush out to buy salt. At some level you WILL be killing off good bacteria, microscopic plant life and plants. What would happen if you put salt water on your grass? The same is true in a pond.

Your idea of adding extra - or finer - filter material has merit, but like you said that's a lot of work. Having a dirt run off into the pond is an issue that you need to deal with but for every day use probably not necessary.

 

[mrsclem]

Agree with @Lisak1 regarding salt. These are fish they are selling, not keeping as pets. It's basically a quarantine treatment. Parasites will eventually become immune to the salt level so as a treatment it would be useless. Also, be aware the only way to remove salt is by water changes. If you would ever need to use medications, most say zero salt!
When I started with my koi 25+ years ago, I was told .15% salt level. After 5 years, I quit using it. Haven't used it since except in treatment tanks.
Again, your pond- your preference. Good luck

 

[Mmathis]

To get to your original question: does adding salt have an effect on the beneficial bacteria? I have perused the Internet and can’t find anything that says salt will have an effect on the beneficial bacteria.

But one thing to keep in mind is that as water evaporates, the salt will stay behind in the pond. It can only be removed by doing water changes. If you don’t monitor your salt levels, you are in danger of over-salting the water over time.

As others have stated, what you choose to do with your pond is your choice, but it sounds like you went into this blind, without doing any actual research on pond health. Rather than focusing on salt, I would recommend learning about what makes a pond healthy. Learn about the nitrogen cycle…..and all of the interventions that can be beneficial and/or harmful to a pond ecosystem.

 

[Lisak1]

Think of one of the oldest uses of salt by man. Food preservation. Why? Because salt is known to kill bacteria. Does it kill all bacteria? At what level? I don’t know the answer to that question however, the fact that we use it as a medication so to speak for fish would tell you that we understand it does kill living things. Do you want the fish that are living outside to be able to survive in the outside? They well encounter. all kinds of things in your pond – parasites, bacteria, amoeba… Who knows what all is living in your pond? We do know it. is teaming with life and that’s the way we want it.

 

[Lisak1]

I just wanted to say again, my purpose in posting this is not to tell you what to do with your pond. My purpose is for those future Pond builders/new pond owners who may read this and think “my pond has to be salted” when in fact it does not, and it may actually be a bad idea. Information on the Internet lives forever, so I always feel it’s important that various views and opinions be represented.

 

[gouldianguy68]

The reason the fish are more active is not because they are happier. It's because the salt is irritating their skin. That's the purpose of adding salt. It irritates the fish so that they add more slime coat to protect themselves from the irritation. The theory is that it will also protect them from parasites as well.

Well,that maybe true to "some" extent? However, bieng neither one of us are Koi phycologist, I obviously would never, ever put anything in the water that I knew for a "Fact" would Irritate my fish. And also bieng the 2 Very prominent Koi farms in the USA, Keep there own Koi in a 3ppm ocean salt solution, I'm choosing to follow there advice. I'm certainly not here to advise other members to do the same. I in no way can say for a fact, that they are acting Irritated, such body behaviors like "Flashing", jumping out of water, rubbing or itching there Skin or rocks or gravel, are Not happening or presenting a normal common sense physical acts of interpretation of a living creature in any Irritated or physical discomfort by any means. In fact just the opposite behaviors of the fish appearing very Happy and healthy are occurring, so I feel very comfortable following there recommend salt/water ratio. I'm very sorry you feel they are Irritated. However, 100 of them I have had for many years and feel I understand there normal behaviors, and I'm choosing to interpret there new behaviors as very positive and also the new members this year,appearing much more interactive, and foraging thru gravel, much more "Normal healthy behaviors " that I haven't seen before. Thankyou for your opinion on the subject,that's what these forums are for, sharing Ideas, asking questions ect. On this particular topic, I strongly feel following the Koi dealers advice was very good for me at least, may not be for everyone? Thankyou
Wishing everyone a happy and Healthy Pond Winter 24/25.

 

[gouldianguy68]

I just wanted to say again, my purpose in posting this is not to tell you what to do with your pond. My purpose is for those future Pond builders/new pond owners who may read this and think “my pond has to be salted” when in fact it does not, and it may actually be a bad idea. Information on the Internet lives forever, so I always feel it’s important that various views and opinions be represented.

Absolutely agree with you 100%. I love to hear everyone's opinion. However for 1 member to say that I'm interesting my fish behavior incorrectly and that my fish are acting the way they are because there skin is Irritated from the salt is a pretty Bold accusation , I was just sharing what the 2 American Koi farms here advised me to match the salt solution water they keep all there koi in, and it's 3ppm. So I followed there advice, yes there are some "Bugs " that have now become salt resistant, but not all of them, Yes they are fresh water fish. However, many of the koi we buy are Imported as well as domestic, but Butterfly Koi are more "Genetically altered" fish than regular koi,but of course we all know that,many we buy have never ever lived in an outdoor Pond environment, living there entire lives in a pristine,very Highly quality water parameters, inside large tubs in a Greenhouse. So when there let free in our outdoor ponds, and various climatic conditions all over the US. And seeing Rock walls, Gravel and Plants many for the first time in there life, and also swimming thru a "Slush pot" of various microorganisms, some good, some bad, and the stress of shipping there immune systems are about Rock bottom when UPS shows up at your door with your new fish. (Quarantine tanks or tubs) are often not used for new fish, before most just float the bag, wait 30min for at least temperature match before release into there ponds. I was just trying to match the water parameters as close as I could to what there used to,to make there transition as "Stress free" as possible, I also raise exotic finches for over 30years, and with all exotic pets, genetics, colors, ect.
There immune systems often are not strength of there original natural cousins, I count on my interepetion of body language an awful Lot, cause neither the koi or my finches can talk to me, but just like our dogs, we can interpret body language as good as something is wrong or something is very right. I myself "felt' by there body language that my pond fish seemed alot happier was the term I used , useing that term was based on much more livelier acting, more interactive with me, more foraging in the gravel, more investigating every inch of there environment, all cues I take from my birds that they feel very comfortable and satisfied with there living conditions and environment . Not "Flashing ",Not gasping on surface, not scraping there skin on rocks or gravel, not any physical signs of what I bieleve 99% of would interpret something is "Wrong " or irritating them
I AGREE this open forum to lay out ones opinions if asked for them? And to think outside the box on our hobby, is a GREAT WAY! To share this hobby with others who are well established, and brand new. I for one feel the day I stop learning, or are willing to try something new is the day it's over for me!! Lol I learn something new everyday,and have been "Ponding" for 25 years , I'm in no way telling everyone new or old to add sea salt to there ponds, I was just sharing the Koi dealers recommendations especially for newly imported Butterfly koi
And asking others there opinions on the subject. I personally feel I definitely made the right descion to follow there recommendations
But obviously others do not, and that's ok to. I try to read all my exotic pets body language as best as I can interpret it? And just use common sense on what there telling me, not saying I can always interepetion it correctly,? But I sure try to, and would never ever add something to the water, or my finches diets, or housing that I know for a fact would Irritated there skin, or cause them discomfort . I definitely probably take better care of my Pets, (my kids)! Than I do myself. Thankyou everyone for your input on this subject, I greatly appreciate it. Wishing you the best for ponding winter 24/25!! Thankyou

 

[gouldianguy68]

Lovely pond!

Thankyou, my Dad and I built it 25 yrs ago, it was our "ongoing never ending project '!! He passed away 5 years ago, "Ponding " was just never the same, we kinda let it go back there, weeds took over landscaping, didn't prune bushes, ect just neglect, this year it just hit us Dad would not be happy with the back yard! So we decided it was pond make over time!! 3 months later, and 126 new trees and perrinals planted, new PVC hoses replaced, we really did the entire backwards back drop of pond!! 46' long!! 100% new trees, new plants, new look, 86 bags of mulch and here we are! I know Dad is smiling down, very HAPPY!! Hard work definitely pays off, and I'm very Proud of the end results!! Thankyou