Koi pond! Really confused.

[combatwombat]

others 4 feet deep

Are there folks here who actually have 4' of gravel media? I think most of us, at that depth, are still at around 2-2.5' of gravel and the rest of the depth is made up from the water matrix blocks and the trench for a large centipede.

 

[poconojoe]

I don't disagree with you - with good filtration, it can work. However, we had 14 big koi in our pond for a number of years and all was well... until our pump failed in the middle of a long cold winter. All but one of those koi died. It was terrible. The 2 dozen goldfish we had in the pond at the same time were unfazed. I will never put koi in my pond again, as much as I love them. And we managed those koi for years with only a bog for filtration - no bottom drain, no water changes, no settling chambers. Just a pond full of plants and fish.

What I don't agree with is the statement "not everyone has the space or money for a large pond". That would be like me saying I really want a St Bernard, and I live in a small apartment but I'm going to do it anyway because it's what I want. If you can't afford to house an animal - any animal - properly, then choose differently. Lots of dogs would do great in a small apartment. Same with pond fish. You can have a beautiful pond of any size that's full of colorful goldfish. Not every pond is suited for koi. If someone can't afford a large pond, then they probably can't afford extensive filtration either.

And the biggest problem we see on the forum is that people don't know when to stop - once they have six koi that are thriving but small, they want six more. The don't take into consideration that those koi are going to get bigger and require more space over time. You've managed to avoid that urge. It sounds like you have multiple ponds, so maybe that's the secret!

Totally agree and I will add that those koi will also reproduce, compounding the problem.

 

[addy1]

Are there folks here who actually have 4' of gravel media? I think most of us, at that depth, are still at around 2-2.5' of gravel and the rest of the depth is made up from the water matrix blocks and the trench for a large centipede.

I vaguely recall some one saying 4 feet without blocks etc. Could be wrong.

 

[poconojoe]

Really do appreciate everybody helping out.
I want to make sure, I build the best pond possible given my yard constraints since well I am building it from scratch, it is a lot easier to do it right the first time then restarting or modifying it after.

I think I have the basic idea for a bog, was my size bog accurate given again I dont have a ton of room. A bog size around 5 feet by 5 feet?
Does the depth of the bog matter? Can I go as deep as I would like? is it a minimum depth?

It's good that you want to get it right the first time. A lot of people build their pond and later want a bigger one. If you are limited by space, build as big as you have room for.

The general rule for bog size is having the bog surface area at least 30% of the pond's surface area. That's the minimum. Of course larger is better.
Mine is just a hair over 30% and it works fantastic.

I only have 12" of gravel, but as stated, many have much deeper bogs.

 

[Wammy]

Lots of great info here!

I just wanted to add that I'm running two pressure filters and they work well in my 4500 gal pond. I'm using a DIY skimmer made from a kitchen style garbage can which works very well too. With regular backwashes, water quality has never been an issue.

The only thing I'd mention if it hasn't already been mentioned is, putting a pump or drain directly on the bottom would make me nervous if you are keeping fish. All it takes is a failure of one of the hoses outside the pond and before you know it, your pond is empty and your fish are dead.

I've always kept my lowest intake a couple of feet or at least 18 inches off of the bottom so that if the pump did empty my pond, there would still be water in the bottom for the fish to survive.

 

[combatwombat]

@Wammy: Great addition. Abs that’s one of the benefits of intake bays and negative edges. There’s a barrier that keeps the pond full even if there’s a plumbing failure.

 

[lvray]

I don't disagree with you - with good filtration, it can work. However, we had 14 big koi in our pond for a number of years and all was well... until our pump failed in the middle of a long cold winter. All but one of those koi died. It was terrible. The 2 dozen goldfish we had in the pond at the same time were unfazed. I will never put koi in my pond again, as much as I love them. And we managed those koi for years with only a bog for filtration - no bottom drain, no water changes, no settling chambers. Just a pond full of plants and fish.

What I don't agree with is the statement "not everyone has the space or money for a large pond". That would be like me saying I really want a St Bernard, and I live in a small apartment but I'm going to do it anyway because it's what I want. If you can't afford to house an animal - any animal - properly, then choose differently. Lots of dogs would do great in a small apartment. Same with pond fish. You can have a beautiful pond of any size that's full of colorful goldfish. Not every pond is suited for koi. If someone can't afford a large pond, then they probably can't afford extensive filtration either.

And the biggest problem we see on the forum is that people don't know when to stop - once they have six koi that are thriving but small, they want six more. The don't take into consideration that those koi are going to get bigger and require more space over time. You've managed to avoid that urge. It sounds like you have multiple ponds, so maybe that's the secret!

I disagree with your blanket statement "2000 gallons is waaaaay too small" for koi. Sure, it is a long way from optimal and 2000 gallons will never be big enough for more than a few , but it is doable if you understand the limits - but I agree most do not and should be discouraged from trying koi in a small pond.
I also disagree with the implication that filtration has to be expensive. There are plenty of low maintenance, very effective filters that can be built cheap - like a bog or a S&G or a shower or a moving bed (except for media, maybe).

 

[GBBUDD]

The "standard" wisdom has evolved to 1000 gallons for the first koi and 500 for each one after that. But honestly, all ponds are so different it would be hard to really nail it down.

Here's a chart I like to share that shows the difference between say 24 inches of koi (which is probably close to an average for koi) and 24 inches of goldfish:

Koi Length and Weight - Ammonia Produced, and Waste Produced

This chart also lists koi weight by weight and how much ammonia and waste they produce. Koi get heavier as they grow and produce more ammonia and waste.

russellwatergardens.com

You can see that four 6 inch goldfish (or 24 inches of fish) would produce about 80 grams of waste per day. One 24 inch koi would produce 1,255 grams per day... dramatically different! Mathematically speaking you could have SIXTY 6 inch goldfish or one 24 inch koi... so it's really a personal choice. A few big fish or a lot of small ones. And goldfish come in so many colors and sizes - long flowing fins or sleek bodied ones. Calicos, sarassas, deep orange... maybe not as dramatic as that big 2 foot long fish, but just as pretty as any koi.

Guess that's why i love koi so much we're both full of it

 

[JesseMoreira06]

Does anybody know where to get not cheap but cheaper liner prise wise? 45 Mil?

 

[Lisak1]

that can be built cheap - like a bog

A bog can be relatively inexpensive to build - agreed. But, as much as I love my bog filtration, I don't think I would try to push the limits on stocking koi with just a bog. If you keep the bio load low - absolutely. But in 2000 gallons, that would be 2 or maybe 3 big koi. Not many people want to build a pond and have a couple of fish. Not that no one does- we have regular posters here who do indeed keep just a couple of big koi. But the new pond enthusiast is much more likely to look at those couple of tiny six inch koi in a 2000 gallon pond and not be satisfied. They aren't looking to the future. Next thing you know they have a dozen big koi and things are going south fast.

If we can help stop that disaster that's looming from happening, I'd rather be on the conservative side and say leave the koi to the koi keepers if what you really want is a easy to manage garden pond.

I also think that lots of people say "koi pond" when they really mean "garden pond" or "fish pond". It's kind of like calling every tissue a Kleenex. That's why it's important for people to decide up front what kind of pond they really want to have. If it's a dedicated koi pond that's one kind of build; an eco-pond is a whole other direction.

I think most of us, at that depth, are still at around 2-2.5' of gravel

That's kind of me - four feet deep to accommodate the centipede, snorkel and a few Aquablox. Then graduated rock up to a gravel layer for the last 12-14 inches.

 

[JesseMoreira06]

Lots of information. I love it!

I do really want a Koi pond, and if that means only being able to house 4 of them I am fine with that.

Ive kept/keep many different breads of fish in aquariums such as Fancy goldfish , chichles, ect.. So I understand that whole process, but purchasing an aquarium of 100 gallons that I then attach a canister filter to and clean every so often and perform weekly water changes is much more different then digging a giant 2,500 gallon hole with large 2 feet fish.

Initially that is why I went with the pressure filter route due to me being already used to that, but again I want to create a pond system that will in the end create a great enviroment for the Koi but also provide me with clear water , less algea problems ect..

 

[poconojoe]

Does anybody know where to get not cheap but cheaper liner prise wise? 45 Mil?

I'm not sure if this site sells EPDM, but their prices for HDRPE were great when I did my bog two years ago, plus it was free shipping!
It's American Talapia.

My pond is 45 mil EPDM, but I used HDRPE for my bog. Make sure it has the "R" for reinforced, not the plain HDPE.

HDRPE is much stiffer than EPDM, but installing it wasn't too bad. I folded the corners like gift wrapping.

HDRPE in most cases doesn't need an underlayment. I guess it depends on how rocky your soil is.

 

[addy1]

Try to get all the same sex koi, they drop a lot of eggs during spawning

 

[GBBUDD]

Does anybody know where to get not cheap but cheaper liner prise wise? 45 Mil?

Justliners has always done right by me I have a 35 x40 sitting in the bed of my truck as we speak

 

[JesseMoreira06]

So good news for me everybody, Ive been able to convince my wife to build the pond on another area of our backyard. What does this mean? It can be a little larger! It will now be the range of 3500-4,000 gallons. Final measurements will be taken later today.

I'm not sure if this site sells EPDM, but their prices for HDRPE were great when I did my bog two years ago, plus it was free shipping!
It's American Talapia.

My pond is 45 mil EPDM, but I used HDRPE for my bog. Make sure it has the "R" for reinforced, not the plain HDPE.

HDRPE is much stiffer than EPDM, but installing it wasn't too bad. I folded the corners like gift wrapping.

HDRPE in most cases doesn't need an underlayment. I guess it depends on how rocky your soil is.

I checked online , I can save roughly 300$ to 400$ by purchasing a HDRPE instead of a 45 mill. Should I do it? I see a lot of positive reviews of people using HDRPE and then others ( I assume have not tried it) state to stick to what works (45 mill) since its been used for years.