Keeping pond running all winter

[Tula]

So interesting to ready about everyone's experience's with wintering their ponds. Sounds like there are many successful methods. I have considered running water through my skimmer.......just not sure yet. The only reason I'd do it, is to have an easier start up of the pond come spring......as the water would be slightly filtered and moving. Kim

 

[crsublette]

Handsome Charles, should I put a plastic container at the bottom of the pond? I fished one out while vacuuming one year. It was only later that it occurred to me that the fish could have wintered in there, but I don't know if thin plastic does anything for insulation.

I don't know. I wouldn't think it would provide much insulation.

The plastic structure is actually a heavy duty plastic tub, built for a pond-less water feature, that is strong enough to hold like 900 pounds of rock. I just carved out a few big holes so that the fish can swim in and out. Who knows what kind of gunk has gotten in there, but I have split off a portion of my pump's water to flow out of the container; so, hopefully there is enough water flow pushing out of the container to prevent gunk from going in. I actually don't care for the plastic structure. I am thinking of removing it since it is restricting my total volume and the uncertainty of not knowing what is accumulating inside it is driving me crazy.

 

[Tula]

I was concerned my lilies weren't blooming this summer and read an article that linked water depth, to blooms. I decided to place a pot of lilies on a cement block to see if it helped. I was fairly horrified when I saw the crud that had accumulated in the holes of the block in such a short time.....but nothing bad happened to my fish....I just freaked out a bit LOL , Kim

 

[crsublette]

I live in Canada, and have a much colder climate than you, ice 7-8" thick for 3 months solid is normal.
My last pond that was only 3 ft deep I turned off the waterfall, but circulated the water with a pump all winter, and attempted to keep a hole in the ice by directing the circulating water up to the surface. This flowing water kept a hole open most of the winter except when it got really cold and the hole developed an ice dome that froze over. Did this every winter for many years, never lost a fish, frog or turtle.
I have a larger pond now that is 5 ft deep and has a bottom drain. Last winter was the first winter for this pond with fish and critters in it, I turned off all the pumps and didn't circulate the water at all, the water stayed warmer at the bottom of the pond, but I had the first winter pond deaths I have ever had. Lost a few fish, a turtle and a frog.
I believe it is more important to circulate and oxygenate the water than it is to try and keep it a couple degrees warmer. It is true that circulating the water will cool it a little more, especially the water near the bottom of the pond, but warmer oxygen depleted water will kill fish faster than cooler oxygen rich water.
I will be circulating my water all winter this year.

I've considered an air pump, and I thin for some it might be the way to go. Probably last winter I wouldn't have lost any fish had I used one, but letting the pond just sit all winter was a sort of experiment for me as I had never done that before and wanted to see just what would happen. I had a low fish (critter) load, and a relatively deep pond (5 ft), and I cleaned the pond out pretty good. The problem however was the algae continued to grow over the late fall and through the winter (even under the ice), and then it started to decompose, and when the ice started to break up in the winter, which it started to do on one side first that is in the sun, the moment the water was exposed and I could access it I noticed it had a light H2S smell to it and it was quite cloudy. Also, when I opened the gate valve on the bottom drain the smell just about knocked me over, all the fermenting water and algae had been sitting in the bottom drain line in an oxygen free environment, just the perfect condition for H2S to form.
Not this winter, I have an alternate plan. I have already redone some of my pluming, and when I shut down the water fall the water circulation will go through the bottom drain, into my indoor vortex settling tank, but instead of proceeding to the other tanks and back to the waterfall, I have an old Laguna pre-filter in the vortex tank and have that plumbed to one of my external pumps (also located in the pump room) and will pump that through my UV unit and back through my skimmer line in a reverse flow direction. My simmer is removed and the water flows back into the pond at about mid level on the far side of the pump. This new configuration is already running, all I have to do to complete the plan for winter is turn off the waterfall pump, close the knife valve to isolate the settling tank from the other tanks, and drain the other tanks.
What all this will basically do is circulate the pond water into my insulated pump room through my vortex tank. Then my vortex tank will be my hole in the ice for gas exchange allowing the water to breath, the pond to freeze over normally, but at any time I'll be able to walk into the pump room and access the water for testing. The pump doing the water circulation is not as powerful as the waterfall pump, so the bottom drain will not have as much "suction" as it normally does, hopefully I won't get too many fish or frogs going through, but if they do, they will just end up in the vortex tank, and there's no reason why they won't be able to survive in there.
Anyway, that's my plan for winter. :cheerful:

Excellent points!!

Yeah, personally, I think water circulation is very important during the winter. Here is why I think this...


For anyone curious, hydrogen sulfide (H2S) is only smelled when the hydrosulfide ion (HS-) is converted to a gas and the gas is brought to the surface. The hydrosulfide ion is relatively safe. Unfortunately, the hydrosulfide ion can very easily grab an extra hydrogen cation (H+) to form the toxic gas. As the pH is increased, then the equilibrium favors the hydrosulfide ion (HS-). As the pH lowers, then the equilibrium favors the hydrogen sulfide gas (H2S). So, whenever you smell it, this is only a small concentration of what you are smelling. When any of the free HS- ions come into contact with anything acidic, such as nitric acid influenced by bacteria or carbonic acid influenced by fish/plants, then more of the toxic gas is formed. The gas, much like carbon dioxide, must be pushed (or circulated) to the surface for it to dissipate. The problem comes when the hydrogen sulfide is allowed to remain stagnant in a portion of the water.

What's my point ?? Just because you do not smell the hydrogen sulfide gas does not mean the toxic gas is not there. Hope this does not make you too paranoid.

Randy Holmes - Hydrogen Sulfide and the Reef Aquarium - This author writes some excellent articles. Eventhough his context is in marine (saltwater) tanks, the fundamentals still apply to our freshwater context, but keep in mind that particular pH curves he recites and compounds will be different for our context since salinity still does change things.


Also, keep in mind that fish and algae are still active during the winter and are still slowly, continually releasing carbon dioxide throughout the winter, this gas can be quite toxic to fish as well if allowed to accumulate, and this gas will only dissipate out of the water when it is pushed near the surface.


Personally, I think, when it comes to winterkills, if the pond is not overstocked, then I doubt the winterkills is caused by a lack of oxygen since even 45*F water holds very high levels of oxygen and the winterkills are more likely caused by a buildup of other gases and other chemicals since the fish and algae continually release them even during the winter.

So... Circulation is a good thing even during Winter !!

 

[crsublette]

I was concerned my lilies weren't blooming this summer and read an article that linked water depth, to blooms. I decided to place a pot of lilies on a cement block to see if it helped. I was fairly horrified when I saw the crud that had accumulated in the holes of the block in such a short time.....but nothing bad happened to my fish....I just freaked out a bit LOL , Kim

Yep, most times I think nothing bad would happen unless the crud was really allowed to accumulate for a long period of time and depending on how much there is.

Also, just because you smell the rotten egg gas smell, this does not mean all of a sudden the fish are harmed. The fish have to swim through the stuff and allow it to enter their gills to make them sick. If you have an aerator in the general area, then the gas will dissipate quite fast. It is just that, more of the crud, then there is a higher potential for this accident to happen.

The gas dissipates quite fast, much like carbon dioxide.

Too many folk get paranoid about the rotten egg smell, but I would much rather take the "better safe than sorry" approach. No reason to test the theory when the end result has a possibility of dead fish.

 

[Cdsdave]

Wow now I'm really getting confused. Keep going back and forth about using my original plan or just shutting it all down and going with an aerator and heater.

I thought about plugging up the bottom drain to reduce the flow but am skittish about doing it. Just not sure if it would put undue strain on the pump or cause any other unseen troubles. I'm probably too paranoid but would rather be safe than sorry.

I have read several times about stuffing the skimmer with bubble wrap. What is the purpose? I would think the water inside the skimmer would just expand upwards and out the top in any freeze situation. How much and where do you place the wrap?

What about any residue remaining inside the plumbing of the bottom drain. Would this cause any troubles assuming I keep an opening in the ice? Since this is the low point of the pond and where the fish will most likely hibernate, should I put an aerator somewhat close to this location?

I just realized how much I enjoy learning and figuring out situations like these!!

 

[Dave 54]

Mucky I take it you have a bubbler on top of your bottom drain cover ?
All we do is turn that down to just a trickle of oxygen and leave it , the amount of areation to our filters supplys what oxygen needs the fish need thats two jap matting with zeolite in one filter plus sponge brushes and three airstones, the next is Jap matting crushed oyster shell, three layers of batting and another three airstones.
Then in the biofilter we have K1 Aquaone bio balls, bio balls etc with six airstones and bio chips, so you can see there is plenty of oxygenation in our filters
At depth five feet you wouldnt have the stratification you are talking about, we are at foor foot and we never see it .
However insulating your filter etc will get you much needed warmth, the other way would be to dig down much deeper say to in beteen 7-8 feet I remember reading of a chap who wanted to warm his pond water using the warmth from the soil piped through and around the outside of the pond being wrapped arund it and then everything is through a central heating pump pumped around the pond and beack again or something along those lines.

rgrds

Dave

 

[Dave 54]

Wow now I'm really getting confused. Keep going back and forth about using my original plan or just shutting it all down and going with an aerator and heater.

I thought about plugging up the bottom drain to reduce the flow but am skittish about doing it. Just not sure if it would put undue strain on the pump or cause any other unseen troubles. I'm probably too paranoid but would rather be safe than sorry.

I have read several times about stuffing the skimmer with bubble wrap. What is the purpose? I would think the water inside the skimmer would just expand upwards and out the top in any freeze situation. How much and where do you place the wrap?

What about any residue remaining inside the plumbing of the bottom drain. Would this cause any troubles assuming I keep an opening in the ice? Since this is the low point of the pond and where the fish will most likely hibernate, should I put an aerator somewhat close to this location?

I just realized how much I enjoy learning and figuring out situations like these!!

I think it may have to do with that old saying of moving water never freezes , weve tested our setup to -10c with no icing whatsoever
Mind in saying this our polycarbonate roofing and sheeting keeps alott of the cold air out as well.

 

[addy1]

Wow now I'm really getting confused. Keep going back and forth about using my original plan or just shutting it all down and going with an aerator and heater.

I thought about plugging up the bottom drain to reduce the flow but am skittish about doing it. Just not sure if it would put undue strain on the pump or cause any other unseen troubles. I'm probably too paranoid but would rather be safe than sorry.

I have read several times about stuffing the skimmer with bubble wrap. What is the purpose? I would think the water inside the skimmer would just expand upwards and out the top in any freeze situation. How much and where do you place the wrap?

What about any residue remaining inside the plumbing of the bottom drain. Would this cause any troubles assuming I keep an opening in the ice? Since this is the low point of the pond and where the fish will most likely hibernate, should I put an aerator somewhat close to this location?

I just realized how much I enjoy learning and figuring out situations like these!!

I have an exterior pump, different worries than a submersible pump. If we were to lose our electricity the pump could freeze up and be destroyed. Too expensive to take a chance. Also my bog is huge the amount of surface water flowing over it, cooling down the pond is significant. You can see a drop and increases in the pond water temp just dependent on the night temp or the sun being out. This time of year it is bouncing all over. It does not seem to affect the fish. The potential for ice dams from the bog with an disastrous over flow out of the pond is too real for me to leave mine running.

Easier to pull my pump, leave the pvc lines open, they have never cracked. Even the ones just out in the air, they all have some residual water in them.
I don't think you need to worry about residual in your bottom drain. My skimmer line (full of water), bog lines (full of water) , pump lines retain some water, I leave the ones open that connect to the pump, none have frozen or caused issues. The only failure I had is our brass faucet that connects to the line going to the preforms. Forgot to take off the garden hose and drain it, it cracked.

So I do stuff my skimmer with bubble wrap. I put it in a plastic bag, stuff the skimmer full displacing enough water so when any water left in it freezes it will not crack the skimmer (mine is outside of the pond, pool skimmer) I also put a heavy rock in the bag, bubble wrap floats............

I hook up an aerator, stick in 3/4 down the pond towards the walk out area, on the bog ledge, around 2 feet down. The fish tend to hang in the deep end which is 5 feet. It is enough to keep a nice hole in the ice. Our winters can be warmish or darn right cold, you never know until it comes. I do not use a heater. Last year any ponds without the air running froze down 7 inches, but here that does not last all winter, like the cold up north ponders.

I sort of like all being shut down, a break from ponding, no water flowing. A break from gardening since all is dead, to me my mini vacation from the beautiful back yard. A break for the electric bill, even though we don't really notice any increase with the pond. Those pumps are pretty efficient.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

I do think there are a number of ways to successfully "Winter" a pond. I find all of them very interesting. I have no idea which is best or proper. One thing I am wondering about this particular method where you had some fish and other loses, is, did you do anything to keep a hole open in the ice?

Nope, I just let the pond freeze over. It was an experiment to see what would happen if I just did nothing at all. Now I know.
The method you describe of pumping water towards the surface is what I used in my old pond to keep a hole in the ice, however it gets cold enough here that eventually a sort of dome builds over the hole and completely seals up anyway

 

[Mucky_Waters]

I sort of like all being shut down, a break from ponding, no water flowing. A break from gardening since all is dead, to me my mini vacation from the beautiful back yard. A break for the electric bill, even though we don't really notice any increase with the pond. Those pumps are pretty efficient.

I'm with you there Addy, I appreciate the winter break, and the revival of the pond in the spring.
I also appreciate the ever changing environment that happens so naturally in an outdoor pond. I've had all sorts of aquariums in the past, tropical aquariums, and cold water aquariums where I had a cooler for cold water fish like trout, but once those thing were set up they existed in a sort of static environment. What is pretty much impossible to simulate in an aquarium is the 4 seasons and weather condition that are found in the natural environment. Wind, rain, hail, ice and snow, sunshine, many of those things are really tough to simulate indoors, but by simply locating the pond outdoors it happens so easily and without any extra effort or special equipment on our part.

 

[Cdsdave]

Hi Addy, my pump and skimmer are also external(skimmer built into the pond wall). I'm guessing the displacement of the bubble wrap compensates for the water that will enter from the pond? We are pretty close geographically and zone wise. Our winter weather here can be hit or miss. Sometimes cold, damp, and dreary, other times mild and dry.

 

[addy1]

Hi Addy, my pump and skimmer are also external(skimmer built into the pond wall). I'm guessing the displacement of the bubble wrap compensates for the water that will enter from the pond? We are pretty close geographically and zone wise. Our winter weather here can be hit or miss. Sometimes cold, damp, and dreary, other times mild and dry.

Yep. unless I drop the pond level, water stays in the skimmer. The bubble wrap makes the skimmer full of air rather then water. The line coming out of it stays full of water, no issues.
We have lost our electric once since living here in the winter (for any length of time) but it was long enough (8 hours) it would have ruined the pump if it had been running. So I prefer to shut the pond down.
The fish don't care. They just float in one spot very seldom moving (we watch them via the underwater camera)

 

[Tula]

I've never put bubble wrap in my skimmer, just assumed that the opening to the pond and the height in the skimmer, above the water level, allowed for expansion if the water froze. Should I be concerned and put bubble wrap in......not sure how much I could get in, without dropping the pond level. I've alwasy left my submersible pumps in the pond too, with no previous problems. Kim

 

[addy1]

I never tested not putting it in, Figure if the pond can freeze the skimmer could freeze, it could crack the plastic. I just stuff the skimmer with bubble wrap, enough to displace water to allow room for ice expansion.
Easy to do, easy to undo, so why not