Keep things Nice and simple

[pond42sliders]

I have to say, on the subjet of (pond) fish keeping, I find the internet very confusing, frustrating and time consuming. But, I have only had Goldfish, in the pond, less than three months.
Finding information concerning ponds only, is not so difficult using the internet, for me.
The reason, I think, is the fact that I took the time to learn, study, and decifer all the information on Water features/backyard ponds....by first reading some books. Out of those books, one was used to highlight things relavent to my particular needs. As well as, important facts and even adding tips taken from the other books. That became my reference book, and was for me, more valuable than anything the internet had to offer while planning and executing my project. Now that it's done, whatever inquires I have, I turn to the internet for.
I totally agree one needs to have some understanding and aquired knowlege before starting a new hobby or project. Something I neglected to do before bringing fish into the picture. I can only hope that my effort, trying to make up for that mistake, does not end up costing the ultimate price of loosing them. Keeping it simple would be a challenge for a newbie like myself, who needs to be more basically educated on the subject. The Internet has too much information scattered all over the place, and none 'simple' enough, to thouroughly understand that's collectively in just one place.
For me, a well read basic beginners book, covering the needs of keeping healthy goldfish is a must. Without having some sort of solid knowlege on the subject, keeping it simple would be quite difficult....I would think.
Keeping it simple, for a responsible newbie is helpful and the right thing to do. But at the end of the day, it is the fish and their caretaker who will reap rewards or pay the price for the choices made. No one else can claim that...no other's fault to own.
Thanks for providing a list of good books to choose from, Dave. Is there one, in particular, you can recommend to a newbie goldfish keeper? I would be so grateful and appreciate not having to read through each intro, trying to figure out which ones might be what I need.
Also, I have one of Peter Robinson's book and would like to offer a review. It is put out by The American Horticultural Society titled "Complete Guide To Water Gardening". Of all the pond books I have (7), it is the best. It's well layed out, offering design ideas, planning, stocking and has an extensive plant catalog. Fully illustrated with detailed instructions. It has beautifull pictures and excellent tips on every page. The book covers everything one needs to know on the subject of ponds, and not a bit boring or hard to understand. It keeps your inspiration alive and growing. I love this book and still use it for plant ideas.

Just a newbie's view,
Susan

 

[Mucky_Waters]

You make some interesting points, Dave, but I don't know if I buy the one about the author of books being more accountable for what they write than internet authors. I've heard of many cases where people have been taken to task for fraudulent or slanderous information they have placed on the internet, especially when it has been show that it was, or could be, directly responsible for harming some one or some groups of people.
Actually that liability issue got me thinking about another hobby I've been involved in since 1976, one in which I've bought many early books on the subject which are now very outdated, and one in which many people have lost their lives, especially in those early years, and that is the sport of Hang Gliding. I probably bought more books and magazines dealing with that subject than any other thing I can think of, and since it is a relatively new sport many of the early books from the 1770s feature training techniques and old hang glider designs, would be considered inherently dangerous by today's standards. And indeed, the 1970s and early 80s saw the greatest number of hang gliding fatalities and serious injuries. Certainly some of the individuals who perished, or were hurt, in the sport read, or possibly had,one or two of these old books in their possession at the time. Funny thing is I can't recall anybody ever suing, or taking to court any of the authors of those early hang gliding books. Thing is, even though those old books may be outdated now, the information contained in them, at the time of publishing, was all many people had at their disposal, at the time. I know that was the case for me anyway.
The fact that the sport grew so fast, and things changed so fast, meant that getting up to date information on technique and designs was crucial to the sport's growth, especially from a safety aspect. The best way to do that was to get organized and start sending newsletters and magazines which were much better at keeping people informed then old, outdated, books. Of course when the internet came along most of those newsletters and magazines went online because it was a faster and cheaper way to get that information out to people, and of course from those things sprung internet news groups and forums. Not only can the later be more up to date, they also have the benefit of being interactive.
None of this is to say that books don't have a place, many people enjoy reading books and newspapers almost as a sort of hobby or relaxation technique in itself, and there is certainly nothing wrong with that. However with the advent of downloadable eBooks, newsletters and articles and news web sites, and proliferation of laptops and hand held electronic devices, one has to wonder where you draw the line and differentiate between information coming from paper "books" and electronic sources.
One thing I can tell you is, and I know this is true for many people, that since I downloaded my first MP3, I have not since ever bought a single record album or CD.
Something tells me you're the kind of guy who still likes to listen to all your old vinyl LPs.

 

[pond42sliders]

Something tells me you're the kind of guy who still likes to listen to all your old vinyl LPs.

You could be tuned right in, with that perseption, Mucky, lol.

When it comes to books, I have to admit to having an advantage in aquiring them in a way that cost me little to nothing. Like 50 cents is the most I ever have to pay, but I am limited to what is available. Still, it is a very good chance that I will find at least two or three ...most times even more books will be available on any given subject I have an interest in at the time. I belong to an organization, known as Friends of the Library. We are a group of volunteers that put together books sales, from donations given by the community, and use the money to have free Story Telling events for the children. This is all done at the main library to incourage a love for reading, with the ultimate goal being better education.
All the books are sold for less than 2.00, and after every sale, we have the chance to buy something for even less. Most of the time those books get redonnated after being read, so I'm just fortunate to have that.

 

[crsublette]

Books can be ghost written and self published as well, especially by highly credentialed individuals.

There's liability even for what folk write on the Internet. It's not that simple to dissappear when the proper authorities become involved. Folk on the internet are just as susceptible to lawsuits as much as authors of book.

Dr. Johnson's books are a perfect example where huge chunks of his books are now outdated, that even the AKCA no longer recommends some of them, but sure this outdated information won't lead to further harm to the fish since it actually was beneficial once upon a time and you will never know it until ya get into the real world where the knowledge base is continually evolving.

Nice thing about an Interent community is that they "should" be up to date to the progressions in the hobby. However, too many folk just eventually become " sticks in the mud " to whatever works and then never change, never improve them self, always staying in one place. The stubborn stance of " if it's not broken, then don't fix it " causes problems. Sure, it might not be "broken", but it likely will become extremely inefficient and outdated as our knowledge base expands.

The old saying can also be applied to books as well, that is, " if you read it in a book, then it just has to be true," which sounds to me to be just as silly as when it is said about the Internet.

Problem with the Interenet is the diversity of opinion and information and abundance of it and too much of it is viewed as fact. This is the fault of the reader just as much as the publisher. If folk are naive and quite shallow to be so quick to believe everything, then these folk just need to stay away from the Internet all together.

Susan, I think you're spot on. Also, once ya find a good book, then it is a keeper, but I wouldn't view anything as a "bible of all things knowing" since the books are just snapshots from that time period. Knowledge evolves over time, which this is not shown in books.

Yep, Mucky makes some very good points as well.

Books have their place on my shelf as well, but eventually they just remain on the shelf out of the fondness of good memories it gave and not read much anymore for good reasons. Of course, there is exceptions to everything and, when I find an excellent fish physiology or aquatic botany book, then it is often referenced more often.

I don't want to waste my time being taught outdated knowledge.

So, I try to stick to books that explain concrete material, that doesn't change too much, such as innerworkings of physiology, biology, and chemistry. For everything else, I will likely look to credible folk on Internet or at other organizations for the latest and greatest methodologies on fixing a particular problem.

I think folk should be just as skeptical what they read in a book as they are with the Internet.

 

[crsublette]

The problem comes with folk who are not skeptically open minded. A reader shouldn't be so open minded that their brain falls out leading them to believe everything told to ya or everything read in a magazine, book, or Internet.

Here's the way I approach it...

If the answers lack detail and are only general explanations, then this forces me to raise an eyebrow to be somewhat skeptical as to how much is actually correct. So, I am always open to be persuaded depending on the quality of the content, but I tend to give the benefit of the doubt as well so that what is said is just not completely ignored. If you can not properly dispute the opposing side, then this forces me to raise an eyebrow in regards to how much is actually correct on your side of it.

If ya can't properly communicate your knowledge base or what has been read, then I really don't care how much experience you have and how many books you have read.

It is tough as a beginner since ya don't know who to believe and ya would like to believe all highly credentialed folk can hardly ever be wrong, which eventually find this is sometimes not true as well.


People just sometimes want to learn only so much and this causes problems as well.

 

[Dave 54]

You make some interesting points, Dave, but I don't know if I buy the one about the author of books being more accountable for what they write than internet authors. I've heard of many cases where people have been taken to task for fraudulent or slanderous information they have placed on the internet, especially when it has been show that it was, or could be, directly responsible for harming some one or some groups of people.
Actually that liability issue got me thinking about another hobby I've been involved in since 1976, one in which I've bought many early books on the subject which are now very outdated, and one in which many people have lost their lives, especially in those early years, and that is the sport of Hang Gliding. I probably bought more books and magazines dealing with that subject than any other thing I can think of, and since it is a relatively new sport many of the early books from the 1770s feature training techniques and old hang glider designs, would be considered inherently dangerous by today's standards. And indeed, the 1970s and early 80s saw the greatest number of hang gliding fatalities and serious injuries. Certainly some of the individuals who perished, or were hurt, in the sport read, or possibly had,one or two of these old books in their possession at the time. Funny thing is I can't recall anybody ever suing, or taking to court any of the authors of those early hang gliding books. Thing is, even though those old books may be outdated now, the information contained in them, at the time of publishing, was all many people had at their disposal, at the time. I know that was the case for me anyway.
The fact that the sport grew so fast, and things changed so fast, meant that getting up to date information on technique and designs was crucial to the sport's growth, especially from a safety aspect. The best way to do that was to get organized and start sending newsletters and magazines which were much better at keeping people informed then old, outdated, books. Of course when the internet came along most of those newsletters and magazines went online because it was a faster and cheaper way to get that information out to people, and of course from those things sprung internet news groups and forums. Not only can the later be more up to date, they also have the benefit of being interactive.
None of this is to say that books don't have a place, many people enjoy reading books and newspapers almost as a sort of hobby or relaxation technique in itself, and there is certainly nothing wrong with that. However with the advent of downloadable eBooks, newsletters and articles and news web sites, and proliferation of laptops and hand held electronic devices, one has to wonder where you draw the line and differentiate between information coming from paper "books" and electronic sources.
One thing I can tell you is, and I know this is true for many people, that since I downloaded my first MP3, I have not since ever bought a single record album or CD.
Something tells me you're the kind of guy who still likes to listen to all your old vinyl LPs.

Dont mention hang gliding Mucky lol whilst still in the Navy I was friendly with a pub landlord we used to take trainee sailors to his pub after a hard day trouping over Dartmmoor, we used to go canoeing together and he was also into other sports including hang gliding.
He asked if I would like to buy his old glider and he would teach me to hang glide, being keen to try
anything new I gave it good thought and was about to say yes when he pranged breaking both his legs much to say I quickly changed my mind and nothing more was ever mentioned about it....

Dave

 

[Dave 54]

The problem comes with folk who are not skeptically open minded. A reader shouldn't be so open minded that their brain falls out leading them to believe everything told to ya or everything read in a magazine, book, or Internet.

Here's the way I approach it...

If the answers lack detail and are only general explanations, then this forces me to raise an eyebrow to be somewhat skeptical as to how much is actually correct. So, I am always open to be persuaded depending on the quality of the content, but I tend to give the benefit of the doubt as well so that what is said is just not completely ignored. If you can not properly dispute the opposing side, then this forces me to raise an eyebrow in regards to how much is actually correct on your side of it.

If ya can't properly communicate your knowledge base or what has been read, then I really don't care how much experience you have and how many books you have read.

It is tough as a beginner since ya don't know who to believe and ya would like to believe all highly credentialed folk can hardly ever be wrong, which eventually find this is sometimes not true as well.


People just sometimes want to learn only so much and this causes problems as well.

I agree totally with what you are saying but you have to communicate diferently to people starting out in the hobby, over say someone who has say more knowledge hence the keep it simple.
The further in we go the more we learn sadly for some they never learn and soon quit the hobby others like ourselves carry on.
The book collection started out after my Tattoo artist friend set me off in reading about the subject giving me what was around £150 of good books, it sort of moved on from there, however there are about another twelve or so books at all levels that I've since bought which are yet to be reviewed.
It was a good friend who got me into reviewing books who is well known in the American koi world after a friendly discussion on the AKCA website , it turned out Spike was in charge of the health forum and its officers in the AKCA.
We still keep in regular contact he now Runs the Koi Organization International website dedicated to bringing koi keepers up to a greater standard by becoming acredited by Koi.
Things sort of grew from there collections are in the blood for both Val and I by turning the hobby into an almost self perpetuating thing buying books, food, equipment or more koi from the proceedes of the sales.
We can only ever go from what a person tells us.
As such on the KKU site we require this before helping someone :-
Before asking a question in this koi heath forum we consider it vitally important that you have the following information in order to make our task of helping you easier.

This is what we will need from you
1) Recent water test results ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH. please tell us which kit you are using and time of day you took the tests.

2) The following information size of pond (uk imperial or US), the pond temperature,along with your filtration details etc.

3), The symptoms of any suspected disease, others breeds of fish in the pond i:e Orfe etc

4) A photo of the koi benched in benching bowl of good quality

5) Is this a recent addition to your pond and most importantly did you QT it for a month prior to releasing it into your pond.

A set of simple questions

It works well

Each to their own as to where you get your information from be mindful some of the information is darn right wrong on the internet its a mine field you have to tread carefully through.
As to fish Bibles hey there's nothing wrong with having a favourite book and calling it a fish bible I have a battered book that I still use to this day.
Dr Johnson recently updated his book 2006 I believe, strange how Spikes take is the older edition is far more useful than the new ?

rgrds

Dave

 

[crsublette]

It was a good friend who got me into reviewing books who is well known in the American koi world after a friendly discussion on the AKCA website , it turned out Spike was in charge of the health forum and its officers in the AKCA.
We still keep in regular contact he now Runs the Koi Organization International website dedicated to bringing koi keepers up to a greater standard by becoming acredited by Koi.

Dr Johnson recently updated his book 2006 I believe, strange how Spikes take is the older edition is far more useful than the new ?

There are good sections in Dr. Johnson's book, but I bet ya Spike would take you to task on many chapters in the book.

Dr. Johnson also was one of the founders of KoiVet.com, which is another very excellent forum full of good and safe advice. However, just as with any forum, there are folk that can be mistaken so everything should still be read with a bit of skepticsm.

Spike and a few others began Koi Organisation International and then many members at Koiphen and Koivet further increased recognition by seting up booths at koi shows, here in the states, to encourage folk to get trained..

If Spike had a choice between Dr. Johnson's outdate book versus being informed through the online organization called K.O.I, then I bet ya he would prefer you to read the online material and to attend the online courses.

Most recent event on K.O.I were classes by Professor Richard Strange, which already started March 4th, and I am not for sure if folk can still jump in on it.

Spike has done many good things, but I am concerned with his approach on the overuse of antibiotics.

Although, in regards to koi breeding, the most highly recommended book I have been referenced to is Nishikigoi Mondo.

I think many books offer good little tidbits, but I would not rely on many of them for my sole source of up to date education.

Yep, there's tremendous amount of bad advice on the Internet, but there is also alot of good advice on the Internet as well. Just as with books, there is a treasure trove of good information on the Internet.

Unfortunately, in an effort to keep things simple, sometimes important details are left out, that should never be omitted, and leaving these holes open is what can lead to misinformation and bad advice.

 

[MitchM]

When it comes to administering medications for specific illnesses, you can't go wrong with quality books and a reliable source that is constantly being updated. An online source for updated information in invaluable. I have an app for human medications and it is updated every month.

As for keeping things simple with regards to most other things for my pond, I use mother nature as the definitive authority I have found that it can be very expensive to fight her. If I have water quality problems, I look for the source of the problem, not for chemicals or equipment to treat the symptoms. It can be challenging, but don't ignore or cover up what your water quality is telling you.

Right now my pond is new and my approach is to start out with the basics - good quality source water, only a few fish for the first year and no preconceived notions on how the pond is going to turn out. As the pond ages, I am watching for water quality issues and how the pond reacts to the environmental conditions it is subject to. I am watching for which plants do well, which don't. The plants that do well, along with water changes as nutrient export mechanisms will keep the need for further filtration to a minimum. I take the same approach to my aquariums and use much less equipment compared to similar systems I have seen.
I think the key is to keep reduced animal populations.

If you want to add a filter, you should be able to identify why you want a filter - what you want to accomplish by using it. Keep an open mind that there may be a simpler way of accomplishing what you expect the filter to do.

 

[Dave 54]

No your wrong there the date For Professor Stranges courses was brought forwards to the 14th from the 4th before the course starts,so you still have time I was going to give it a go this year but sadly the b****** that broke in put paid to that as well as those robbing insurance people (I'm not sure who are the bigger of the two crooks).
The Laptop we lost had alott of koi data on it not backed up by our PC (I know I should have done it but we all learn by our mistakes),the hard way in this case.
Our money has now to be diverted to buy a new laptop which is essencial for working by the pond a decent one cost upwards of £380 UK, A Veterans Pension doesnt cover that cost so we have to save up.
Unless the Onbudsman finds in our favour which could take some time and we are not prepared to take a risk of them finding in favour of the insurance company
Strangely when I mentioned Dr Johnsons updated 2006 book he said personally he prefares the older of the two books.
I agree wholeheartedly on what the KOI organization has set out to do.
However I have books that surpass the Good doctors book, two of them written for the AKCA Health Forum, one by his good friend Duncan Griffith which is an outstanding book held in high regard on both sides of the pond the other by Nicholas Saint-Earne, Duncan is one person I would really like to meet
But as I say its each to their own you prefare he net I put trust in our Library especially with some of the books now in print about koi.
Nishikigoi Mondo is on my wish list as are a number of other books
Keeping things simple as I originately stated is for the novice so that they may understand what you are trying to teach them.

rgrds

Dave

 

[pond42sliders]

Again...for a newbie, the internet is confusing...decietfull...repititious...tireing...and sometimes not even available. This thread was started with the notion of keeping things simple for the newbie (if I am recalling correctly). The idea of having a good reference book on hand, is to me, without question a must. I am a newbie.
Sometimes (alot of times) I don't even know what it is I should ask. So I get online, surfing around for answers to something I know little about. Get three or four different views...answers....reasons...and sale prompts. I purchace stuff I think I need....I mean I can on about whats all wrong, but you get the picture I'm sure.
I'm not someone who incapable of describing a problem, or understanding how to do anything that is being explaned. I don't believe everything I read, and not afraid of stepping outside the box of all things that are tried and true. But I'm no different than the next person...including you...when it comes to starting a new adventure, like ponding, fish keeping, skydiving or whatever.....it's not as easy as learning to tie a shoe. There will be parts that time to learn in order to be understood. Standard things in general. Everybody is different, and has their own way of doing something. But until they learn what works for them, most will makes mistakes, too. It helps to keep things simple as possible for someone just learning what to do. Having common scence and listening to mother nature, two things good to have and do.

Susan

 

[crsublette]

No your wrong there the date For Professor Stranges courses was brought forwards to the 14th from the 4th before the course starts

Good deal. Although, the K.O.I. Course Overview still says it started the 4th.

But as I say its each to their own you prefare he net I put trust in our Library especially with some of the books now in print about koi.

I prefer whichever keeps me on top of it and is a good reference guide. I don't understand why ya think the Internet is not integral.

I keep books as well, but this outlook on how the Internet can provide no good information is quite silly. K.O.I and koivet and other good forums out here are a perfect example of what good stuff the Internet provides.

I'm fine with using generalizations to support a stance, but lets try to make your positioning a bit more persuasive by start talking facts if you want to use this broad brush of how most advice on the Internet is "just down right dangerous".

 

[crsublette]

Yes, having common sense is important to be applied for everything in life and ya should always keep your gaurd up when reading anything or when taking advice from absolutely anyone.

Wisdom is simply critically applying your education with also an effort to learn from mistakes made by others, but it is sometimes true you just have to screw up every once and a while to be taught something as well.

Susan, you should look into taking a course on K.O.I. They also give you a snazzy, extremely elaborate, quick reference guide just for signing up.

 

[crsublette]

Sometimes (alot of times) I don't even know what it is I should ask. So I get online, surfing around for answers to something I know little about. Get three or four different views...answers....reasons...and sale prompts. I purchace stuff I think I need....I mean I can on about whats all wrong, but you get the picture I'm sure.

Yep, even real life does the exact same to you as well. Holistic doctors and more mainstream doctors in real life are no different where you'll get three or four different answers to a problem; it is extremely more important to ask questions rather than to self diagnose. If you do not understand, then simply ask another question. The problem comes when folk just don't want to learn much more so they eventually folk believe whatever they read, when it fits their agenda, rather than asking more questions to get to the truth of the matter.

The most aggravating issue to me is when folk with all this experience simply can not explain the advice they give beyond, "well, it works for me". If ya don't know why it works, then eventually something is going to bite ya or the person that is being helped. Time and time again I read folk think that "when they see X happening so this has to mean Y...," which is just halfway true at best. This is why you need to be careful when simplistic answers are given to a question.

 

[crsublette]

When it comes to administering medications for specific illnesses, you can't go wrong with quality books and a reliable source that is constantly being updated. An online source for updated information in invaluable. I have an app for human medications and it is updated every month.

Yep, exactly my point.

As for keeping things simple with regards to most other things for my pond, I use mother nature as the definitive authority I have found that it can be very expensive to fight her. If I have water quality problems, I look for the source of the problem, not for chemicals or equipment to treat the symptoms. It can be challenging, but don't ignore or cover up what your water quality is telling you.

Mother Nature has her own language. Everything she does happens for a reason, but don't fool your self thinking your pond is something that is natural. I think Dr. Shimek says it the best; although it applies to a reef coral tank, it would apply it to our ponds as well...

"With all of these levels in place, a coral reef aquarium ([or pond]) is neither more nor less than a small captive analogue of an ecosystem. It meets all the necessary requirements of a small ecosystem, and there are numerous natural ecosystems just as small. Is it natural? It most decidedly is not! Can it be a functional ecosystem? Absolutely! When this functional ecosystem is well set up, it is an efficient and easy way to manage and keep our coral reef animals ([or pond]) in the peak of health."

Yep, animal population and the environment is a major role in determing what type of, if any, filtration is required.