IS IT POSSIBLE TO HAVE TOO MUCH FILTRATION?

[Craig58]

For the average ponder you probably can't have to much filtration because they'll probably never hit the purity levels necessary to really deprieve plants of the necessary nutrients. There might be the rare exception that makes the rule of course. I have never had much luck with floating plants in my koi pond but koi are notorious for trimming the roots to nubs which I think has more an impact than the lack of nutrients in the water.

I liked the video a lot. At the end, he started to get into the concept of what you want out of the pond. I.e. The 80 yr old grandmother who wants an easy to care for pond. She might spend more money for a low maintenance system, higher capacity system. A DIY might want to spend less money and be willing to do a bit more weekly work to clean pads and such. It all comes back to what you want to get out of your pond.

In pure Koi ponds, you really can't have too much filtration. You might have too much in the sense that you pay to install and run a system where a significant amount of the capacity is not necessary and thus you throw some money out the window. But when these true Koi keepers/collectors are spending thousands of dollars sometimes for just one fish, $5000 - $10,000 for their filtration systems usually isn't an issue. And they usually don't really care that much about plants.

BTW: we primarily keep Koi but I don't have that kind of money! I've bought one fish in 17 years over $100.00. And probably never will again. Most of our Koi were purchased from as low as $1.89 to about $75.00 and all were fairly small. Several were born in the pond. You can keep some very nice Koi for a very reasonable price.

All IMHO,

Craig

 

[crsublette]

Fish also excrete ammonia through their skin and also the decay process of any plant and algae material also creates food for bacteria to create the Nitrates, plant fertilizer.

I have never heard of too much bio-filtration that would kill plants. Bio-filtration creates nitrates, that is plant fertilizer.

Fancy mechanical filtration such as the self cleaning pond rotary drum system goes all the way down anywhere from 250 microns to 15~45 microns. For a sense of perspective, common household underground well sediment filters are 30 microns, reverse osmosis sediment filters are 5 microns, and reverse osmosis fines filter goes down to 1 micron. I think you only need 250~300 microns to filter out fish pookie, which is the main concern. I have heard of koi enthusiasts with nice mechnanical filtration still have high nitrates, that is all the way upwards to the 30+ ppm nitrate levels. Does a pond with plants still do ok with a rotary drum filter that has a 45 micron mesh? I have no idea. I figure, by removing the debris down to this level, it would reduce the potential volumes of nitrates quite a bit. It would also depend on how well the pond is designed, with water currents, to help push the debris into the mechanical filtration instead of allowing debris to settle.

I bet ya the typical DIY mechanical filtration won't ever get down, much below 300 microns or so, to that level of particle capture unless you are talking about involving your self with mechanical filter that uses various micron meshes.

Hmmm, I am not for sure how low a S&G (sand and gravel) or bog type filter would filter.

Interesting question.

 

[Craig58]

Agreed. It woud be very hard to get down to those levels to affect plant growth.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned though, and it is just a caution. Pump size and flow rate can be too high for a given filtration system. Pushing water to fast through a given system, can cause it to not work properly. That's just a cautionary comment to future readers that might read this later on, that we are not talking flow rates here but properly designed systems with proper pumps and flow rates that are appropriate for the filtration being used.

Craig

 

[crsublette]

A pie in the sky thing here, but gonna toss it out.

I have been reading about them, watching videos, and these things are amazing. You will never have to worry about heavy organics being dumped into the bio-filter and back into the water. As most know, when you pump feed water to a mechanical filter, the pump can chop up and mince the debris that passes through much of a typical filter. The features of a RDF: 1) can utilize sieve mesh that can capture the minced debris; 2) can be pump and gravity fed; 3) unit completely cleans the sieve mesh and effluent dumps out to the side that can be directed to a drain or a sump pump. The size of the filtration unit determines the flow rate. There are 40 micron units to fit 3,700 gph up to 15,000 gph and possibly even higher. High pressure spray jets clean the mesh so there is a little bit of noise, that can be easily masked by a waterfall. The RDF has special sensors to know when to clean the mesh. Of course, moving parts indicate potential break downs, but the potential break down hassle might be worth it due to the fact you can walk away, never pay it much mind, except for the occasional glance to make sure it is working. A good discussion on koiphen.com, Rotary Drum Filters ... are they the future? talking about the pros and cons.

How much would your new toy cost? Anywhere between $2,500 and $5,000 dependent on the flow rate. Aaahh.

Yeah, I don't think my comets are worth it. Poor guys.

It is a kool toy.

 

[Craig58]

Yes.. but as I mentioned in another thread, for serious Koi collectors, $5000 to $10000 or more for filtration is nothing. Even for low end Koi at $500 to $1000 apiece and a 20 fish tank, (which is a low numbr of fish), you are talking anywhere from $10,000 to $20,000 in fish. So lets say they spend $10,000 on filtration. They spend 1$ on filtration for every 1$ of fish. On the upper end of fish value it is .50 per $1 of fish.

Compare that to the average backyard pond. 20 mixed Koi and goldfish. Average value of fish $5-$10, so maybe $200.00 in fish. Buy a pump, and UV and you are looking probably at a minimum of about $500.00 in filtration at least. That means the back yard ponder is spending at least $2.00 per $1.00 of fish. Twice as much!

Who's actually spending more? :razz:

Just thought I'd throw a different perspective to it!

Craig

 

[CountryEscape]

This is a great thread. I have to put in that I was unable to grow hyacinths in either of my ponds, goldfish or koi, this summer. They did well at first, then all started dying. I will add that in the goldfish pond I had 3 rings, 2 sheltered the roots with mesh, and one free floating, and 2 rings of sheltered mesh rings in the koi pond. Now, I will add that I kept finding a koi in the mesh in the koi pond, guess they REALLY wanted those roots! But, none of the hyacinths did well. Someone said my ponds may have been "too clean", although I doubt that. Goldfish pond has 3x17' plant bog and skimmer as filtration, koi pond has 55 gal skippy and skimmer. Took the few remaining hyacinths out that were barely hanging on, put them in large pots with kitty litter (they were supposed to be for lotus plants) and water, and they did fantastic, still blooming. Go figure! I would have thought those plants would have done better in the actual water. Also tried them in the shallow water of the bog, and they died there, too.
Thanks for the good pointers everyone!

 

[lovinglife]

I can't grow hyacinths either, and trust me I do NOT have too much filtration. I think maybe too much sun or too cool at night.....something, but they just do not do well in my pond.

 

[CountryEscape]

I thought it was too much sun, too, LL, and maybe water too hot, since we had 3 months of 90 degree temps again this year (June, July, Aug.), but when I moved them into a 5 gal bucket, the water was just as hot, if not hotter, they were getting almost as much sun, and they started growing. I still cannot figure it out. Thought it maybe had to do with my well water, too high of PH (8.4), thinking they like more like 7.0, but using the same water in the water pots. Maybe having the cat litter is helping them out in the pots. Anyhow, for now, they are thriving, and it's been getting down to 45 a couple of nights now, and it is not slowing them down at all!