bettasngoldfish
Maria
Many people also treat fish for parasites as a part of their quarantine procedure. You can count on the fact that a new goldfish is carrying some sort of bugs on it (even if you don't see them with your eyes)
Introducing a new koi
- Thread starter gloria
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Acctually Lisa it was I that first brought up the stress factor Mitch agreed with it , sorry that I miss read your post but that was a very wise move by you but the same would apply by moving the fish into QT stress would also be a factor because its in water it doesnt know especially if Gloria intends to move this koi to the school and put it in one of their tanks , however a close eye can be kept on it and treatments issued prior to it moving to her pond in the spring at lest then she nows its free of parasites .
There is a condition called Koi Herpes virus or KHV, where you deliberately set out to stress the koi as much as possible by ramping i;e raising the temperature upwards and downwards in a rapid succession this is to bring on the condition if the virus is suspected .
In South Africa they drive their koi at speed over rough roads to again stress the koi out to see if its carrying the virus, different but the same end result as ramping koi sadly its a tough neccessity as KHV is rife in the far east so all fish are suspect .
My South African friend Neville lost all of his fish to KHV only two years ago due to KHV infected koi coming into SA from the far east so very sad
he'd spent years putting together his koi collectionDave
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So true Maria and with goldfish you have to watch out for Goldfish herpes virus or GhV not as virulent as KHV but still a killer
Dave
Well, if you did mention intentionally inducing stress as a reason for quarantining a fish, I totally missed it. But no matter, the reasoning makes some sense and hopefully will be helpful to another ponder who is thinking of adding fish to an existing pond.
Dave did not mention inducing stress at all.
Inducing stress was for KHV purposes with any new fish from the far east which is normally done by the dealerships prior to the koi being sold on to koi fanciers mentioned two posts ago dp
Which is slightly off track but come on guys this is basic stuff
Stress was also mentioned by me prior to mitch's post :-
Then I welcome him to the site dp perhaps we can learn from him, you see dp you never once stop learning in our hobby my friend.
There are always new ways to do things, new treatments to try and new ideas to take on board.
Even after 27 years of keeping koi we are still learning Meyer will probably agree with this.
Like Meyer my friends think me a very modest person and as an expert Meyer will know that you never break QT protocol, perhaps he would like to come in on this to explain this to you ?
He will also know that each pond is a different ecosystem to the next and as such it would always be wise to QT otherwise your going to end up with a whole heap of issues you didnt bargain on ***
Dave.
*** After I left the site last night Val reminded me of two former members of our section Mike and Jeff who live next door to each other , Mike asked Jeff if he could buy one of his koi beautiful metalic hariwake which is a two or mor coloured metalic koi .
They were neighbours they lived next door to each other and even bought their koi from the same dealerships so Jeff named his price and into Mikes pond went the koi.
Then Mike started having problems in the end he lost four of his koi to Costia which Meyer will agree can and does if left untreated will kill causing heavy losses , costia is a condition that is brought about by stress obviously there was a difference between the two systems hat brought this outbreak about , Mike didnt recognise what was happening to his cost.
Dont you think that a fish is put under stress the moment you plunge a net into a pond or catch it and raise it from its water world into our air world ?
Dont you think a fish is under stress when put into a plastic bag or put into a QT unit which is water that is alien too it and thus stressful an enviroment that has alien smells and thus different which also has a differing chemical signature to that of the pond it has lived in for most of its days ?
This is why we have a QT period in the first place because it leaves a fish open to any parasite it may be carrying or dont you believe your pond has parasites at all , because everyones pond has .
These are things you should have learned about early on , parasites only become a problem at times of damage and enviromental stress I shouldnt have to mention it at all .
In the koi world we have a way of netting koi which lessens stress :-
https://www.gardenpondforum.com/threads/catching-your-koi-netting.10579/
Mentioned many months ago by us you cant just charge in there chase the fish half way around the pond to catch it thats asking to induce stress
But it is up to us all to QT fish to add a fish without doing so is asking for trouble be it your neighnours pond this is why we have QT in the first place
Maria even back me up on this when she says the following :-
Many people also treat fish for parasites as a part of their quarantine procedure. You can count on the fact that a new goldfish is carrying some sort of bugs on it (even if you don't see them with your eyes) .
Many of us in the koi world go so far as to scrape our fish during QT for the presence of parasites knowing about the stress issues involved thats why we do it
Buts lets get back on track shall we this is about a koi gloria asked about not anyone else and the answer is to QT
Dave
Which is slightly off track but come on guys this is basic stuff
Stress was also mentioned by me prior to mitch's post :-
Then I welcome him to the site dp perhaps we can learn from him, you see dp you never once stop learning in our hobby my friend.
There are always new ways to do things, new treatments to try and new ideas to take on board.
Even after 27 years of keeping koi we are still learning Meyer will probably agree with this.
Like Meyer my friends think me a very modest person and as an expert Meyer will know that you never break QT protocol, perhaps he would like to come in on this to explain this to you ?
He will also know that each pond is a different ecosystem to the next and as such it would always be wise to QT otherwise your going to end up with a whole heap of issues you didnt bargain on ***
Dave.
*** After I left the site last night Val reminded me of two former members of our section Mike and Jeff who live next door to each other , Mike asked Jeff if he could buy one of his koi beautiful metalic hariwake which is a two or mor coloured metalic koi .
They were neighbours they lived next door to each other and even bought their koi from the same dealerships so Jeff named his price and into Mikes pond went the koi.
Then Mike started having problems in the end he lost four of his koi to Costia which Meyer will agree can and does if left untreated will kill causing heavy losses , costia is a condition that is brought about by stress obviously there was a difference between the two systems hat brought this outbreak about , Mike didnt recognise what was happening to his cost.
Dont you think that a fish is put under stress the moment you plunge a net into a pond or catch it and raise it from its water world into our air world ?
Dont you think a fish is under stress when put into a plastic bag or put into a QT unit which is water that is alien too it and thus stressful an enviroment that has alien smells and thus different which also has a differing chemical signature to that of the pond it has lived in for most of its days ?
This is why we have a QT period in the first place because it leaves a fish open to any parasite it may be carrying or dont you believe your pond has parasites at all , because everyones pond has .
These are things you should have learned about early on , parasites only become a problem at times of damage and enviromental stress I shouldnt have to mention it at all .
In the koi world we have a way of netting koi which lessens stress :-
https://www.gardenpondforum.com/threads/catching-your-koi-netting.10579/
Mentioned many months ago by us you cant just charge in there chase the fish half way around the pond to catch it thats asking to induce stress
But it is up to us all to QT fish to add a fish without doing so is asking for trouble be it your neighnours pond this is why we have QT in the first place
Maria even back me up on this when she says the following :-
Many people also treat fish for parasites as a part of their quarantine procedure. You can count on the fact that a new goldfish is carrying some sort of bugs on it (even if you don't see them with your eyes) .
Many of us in the koi world go so far as to scrape our fish during QT for the presence of parasites knowing about the stress issues involved thats why we do it
Buts lets get back on track shall we this is about a koi gloria asked about not anyone else and the answer is to QT
Dave
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Well, at least stress is getting a lot of attention.
It's fine for us to say "changes cause stress" but how does one recognize stress in a fish anyways? Are there any obvious outward signs?
That's interesting, Dave that koi dealerships will try to induce stress in order to bring forward any diseases.
It's fine for us to say "changes cause stress" but how does one recognize stress in a fish anyways? Are there any obvious outward signs?
That's interesting, Dave that koi dealerships will try to induce stress in order to bring forward any diseases.
White fish when stressed can turn pinlkish in colouration, Ich and other diseases can appear as a result of your koi/goldfishes stress
When fish are stressed, they often develop odd swimming behavours such as skitishness
If your fish is skitish, swimming frantically without going anywhere rubbing the sides or bottom of the pond, locking its fins to fins along the sides of its body can indicate he may be stressed for some reason and is experiencing significant stress.
Stress in fish is caused by many different factors situations that can result in a change of habitat or a disturbance in behavior
The conditions of your ponds water can cause lots of stress such as if your system is poorly maintained, gasping at the waters surface means we need to find out if there is anything wrong with it
High ammonia or nitrate levels, low oxygen levels, improper temperature or a high or low pH can cause stress.
Bullying by other fish as like us humans, not all fish get along, especially if your pond is over stocked , fighting over food is another cause of this especially if you are underfeeding I try to evenly spread mine around the pond
In addition to those I've already mentioned, there are other factors that lead to stress, i;e the presence of any added chemicals or medications in pond.
Where and when we can we QT speperately from the pond.
We try not to move up on the pond to quickly or knock the side of the pond thus stressing the fish out by that method fish invest alott of energy when in flight mode which we dont really want
improper diet or spent food that has lost its vitamins and goodness will cause stress, which is why we always make sure our food is in airtight sealed tubs and it is not used after its sellby date
In addition we try to give them alternate foods all give your fish good nutrition and helps reduce stress significantly as stress can lead to serious problems with your fish health wise
If we notice on our daily checks of the koi that they are stressed we try to determin there and then the cause and if identified correct it where possible.
In fact there are a miriad of signs your fish is stressed you just have to know what is abnormal and what is not plus anythng already mentioned posts prior to this
Dave
When fish are stressed, they often develop odd swimming behavours such as skitishness
If your fish is skitish, swimming frantically without going anywhere rubbing the sides or bottom of the pond, locking its fins to fins along the sides of its body can indicate he may be stressed for some reason and is experiencing significant stress.
Stress in fish is caused by many different factors situations that can result in a change of habitat or a disturbance in behavior
The conditions of your ponds water can cause lots of stress such as if your system is poorly maintained, gasping at the waters surface means we need to find out if there is anything wrong with it
High ammonia or nitrate levels, low oxygen levels, improper temperature or a high or low pH can cause stress.
Bullying by other fish as like us humans, not all fish get along, especially if your pond is over stocked , fighting over food is another cause of this especially if you are underfeeding I try to evenly spread mine around the pond
In addition to those I've already mentioned, there are other factors that lead to stress, i;e the presence of any added chemicals or medications in pond.
Where and when we can we QT speperately from the pond.
We try not to move up on the pond to quickly or knock the side of the pond thus stressing the fish out by that method fish invest alott of energy when in flight mode which we dont really want
improper diet or spent food that has lost its vitamins and goodness will cause stress, which is why we always make sure our food is in airtight sealed tubs and it is not used after its sellby date
In addition we try to give them alternate foods all give your fish good nutrition and helps reduce stress significantly as stress can lead to serious problems with your fish health wise
If we notice on our daily checks of the koi that they are stressed we try to determin there and then the cause and if identified correct it where possible.
In fact there are a miriad of signs your fish is stressed you just have to know what is abnormal and what is not plus anythng already mentioned posts prior to this
Dave
OK. See this is where the whole qt thing starts to sound like a circular argument. Stressing a fish can cause the very problems you're trying to avoid. But by putting them in qt you INTENTIONALLY induce stress. And then you stress them all over again by moving them from qt to the pond. It sounds like a catch-22. I mean that list you gave makes it sound like my fish need therapy - every life event stresses them out.
I'm joking, sort of. I mean - don't sneak up on them? And I realize that for longtime koi keepers this stuff is "koi keeping 101" so you may get tired of repeating it. But I'm the kind of person who wants to know not only WHAT but WHY and sometimes HOW and WHEN as well. You came from a premise of "well of COURSE we're talking about stressing the fish - that's the whole point". But until Mitch came out and said it, I didn't get that point at all. And I thought DP raised a good question - one that I have wondered about myself. For example, if I buy fish from a reputable dealer they have already qt'd the fish (ours in particular guarantees at least 90 days). So why would I bring those fish home and qt them again - I mean I will now create stress by taking them out of the store, stress by putting them in qt at home and stress when I put them in my pond? I'm stressed just thinking about it!
And yes, the question was from the original poster, but isn't the whole point here for all of us to learn and share? And not just us today, but people who may read this in the future who have a similar question can learn from this conversation as well. And you said yourself - even you are still learning in the hobby. How does that continue to happen if the "usual practices" are never challenged? I personally appreciate people questioning my thought processes - it helps me solidify my understanding, or realize the weakness in my reasoning. Either way it's a positive if I choose to see it that way.
Lisa you have a perfectly good point but dont bite the messenger blame the breeders and those who think fish are something that lives for a few weeks and its ok for it to die. Unfortunely the intensive breeding programs to supply the fish trade has thrown up all sorts of problems mostly to do with viruses in the case of Koi KHV which if it finds its way into your pond means 80% of your koi will die in the case of goldfish GHV with a lesse kill rate of around 50% , if you get either of these then for you that is it you cannot by law sell on the survivors and in the case of KHV you have to inform the authorities .OK. See this is where the whole qt thing starts to sound like a circular argument. Stressing a fish can cause the very problems you're trying to avoid. But by putting them in qt you INTENTIONALLY induce stress. And then you stress them all over again by moving them from qt to the pond. It sounds like a catch-22. I mean that list you gave makes it sound like my fish need therapy - every life event stresses them out.
And I realize that for longtime koi keepers this stuff is "koi keeping 101" so you may get tired of repeating it. But I'm the kind of person who wants to know not only WHAT but WHY and sometimes HOW and WHEN as well. You came from a premise of "well of COURSE we're talking about stressing the fish - that's the whole point". But until Mitch came out and said it, I didn't get that point at all. And I thought DP raised a good question - one that I have wondered about myself. For example, if I buy fish from a reputable dealer they have already qt'd the fish (ours in particular guarantees at least 90 days). So why would I bring those fish home and qt them again - I mean I will now create stress by taking them out of the store, stress by putting them in qt at home and stress when I put them in my pond? I'm stressed just thinking about it!
And yes, the question was from the original poster, but isn't the whole point here for all of us to learn and share? And not just us today, but people who may read this in the future who have a similar question can learn from this conversation as well. And you said yourself - even you are still learning in the hobby. How does that continue to happen if the "usual practices" are never challenged? I personally appreciate people questioning my thought processes - it helps me solidify my understanding, or realize the weakness in my reasoning. Either way it's a positive if I choose to see it that way.
KHV is now pendemic in the carp fishing lakes of Europe and the UK it has also found its way into US lakes , it wasnt through the koi fraternety it was spread by the angler, how it found its way across the channel to the UK most probably it came over with carp that are moved around those lakes in the US who knows perhaps someone wanted to fish for koi and released them into European and US lakes .
There are millions of fish bred each year for the US and europe as well as the rest of the world , so you have to ask yourself where do all these fish go ?
The answer is just as complex and the motatlity rate huge, feeder fish in the US, prizes in fairgrounds and fish keepers who quite simply dont have a clue what they are doing, as well as deats whilst in transit from the breaders to the trader/dealers
We stick by the QT rules strickly its simply not worth the risk of an outbreak of parasites, you have good traders/dealers and bad ones the big petstores have been in trouble for this in both your country and mine personally I go to the little man they have good reputations.
There are always parasites on fish you cannot get around that the same as we have microscopic bugs living off us no matter how clean you scrub yourself so even if the fish has gone through QT at trade level it is still advisable to QT again that is how you gt fish like our own koi who have lived for years our oldest as you know being 27, something we are rightfully proud of .
We could buy a fish tomorrow and say hey you know screw this we wont bother with QT then wonder why all our fish have infections which is somehing I'm not going to do because I love my fish dearly , the fact that we QT them again attests to this as we dont wish to introduce anything that may have slipped through that our koi havent a defence agaisnt .
You only have to look back into your own history to know what no defence against something does look at the millions of native Americans who died when we happened on the sceen .
So QTing is a thing our experts advise us to do time and time again why on earth should we question their wisdom ?
And in answer to your question no I dont get tired of repeating it the message needs to be gotten out there as does the knowledge then perhaps others can be just as informed and can make there own plans to QT
Dave
Thanks Dave - like I said, I have no experience with a qt as we decided early on that we would buy the fish we wanted and that would be that. Since they all came from the same dealer, we were confident they all shared the same germs and parasites and whatnot. I honestly won't even consider adding new fish to the mix. Don't need the problems. I too have grown rather fond of those slimy, scaly creatures - I would hate to see anything happen to them. Although if I had a neighbor with a fish that who's only options were my pond or the garbage heap, I'd probably relent... and now we've come full circle back to the OP!
I wish we would take the same approach with human quarantine with all that's going on in the US right now with Ebola. I think we're all in trouble if we don't crack down somewhere... but that's a whole other kettle of fish!
I wish we would take the same approach with human quarantine with all that's going on in the US right now with Ebola. I think we're all in trouble if we don't crack down somewhere... but that's a whole other kettle of fish!
Ha! It's OK Dave - they don't mind!I'd hug them if I could but I cant it'd stress them out
