In over my head, building a huge waterfall. Need pointers.

[Tjsherrill]

Depending on what fittings you use, looks like you'll have somewhere in the realm of 18 - 22 ft. of total head and will be getting somewhere between 6-8000 gph with that pump.

I took a look at the curve on the side of the box based on the picture and I am having trouble figuring this all out. My reading of this is that at 35-40' of head height, my MS12500 will do 12500 GPH. My assumption (which I know I shouldn't do) is that at 15-20' of head height it would do the same. the head height of ~20 geet is the dark green line but that represents the MS6100 pump... I am starting to assume that I have this wrong.

@GBBUDD I watched the videos and those are basically what I used in my calculations originally. I think I have just shy of 100 gal of water in motion. I have 11 aquablox totally 330 gals and a 45 gal pump vault bringing me to 375. Based on the Modern design guy even if I have 150 gals of water in motion I would be running the reservoir at half which is what he recommends.

to be 100% clear: I am building a pondless so I am not planning on pools of water at the bottom.

One other note is that I am planning on doing bibb liners in pooling spots down the falls…. Which lowers the water in motion.

Thanks a ton for all this help. Its helping me make sure I am on the right track. Any help or insight here is much appreciated.

 

[GBBUDD]

I have a secondary pool at the base of my negative edge that less than half of my ponds intake draws from and I am using 12000 gph . 200 plus gallons. I more than wish I made it three times the size.
Got to remember your pondless is three times the size of most .
John also says in may videos his numbers are based on simple average design if your going outside the box you may want to add to his numbers . Not telling you anything just a thought a pump that pushes 12000 gph or more will empty 300 gallons in the blink of an eye.
But if your looking at a relaxing trickle down the hill it may be more than enough.

 

[combatwombat]

Thanks for the better pic of the pump curve. Unless I’m missing something (on my phone), the 12500 gph pump will put out 8,000 GPH at 20 feet of head.

 

[combatwombat]

Pumps are typically named for their flow at 5’ of head, thus the Monsoon 12500.

The way to read that chart is to:

1. Find the curve for your pump (the yellow/red one)

2. Go up the Y axis until you’re at your head height (probably about 20’).

3. Trace across the chart until the line for your head height intersects with your curve.

4. Go down to the x-axis to find the flow delivered at that head.

 

[combatwombat]

See red line:

 

[combatwombat]

And now I see that this pump actually does 12500 at 0’ of head, so that’s wide open with no pipe attached.

 

[Tjsherrill]

Pumps are typically named for their flow at 5’ of head, thus the Monsoon 12500.

The way to read that chart is to:

1. Find the curve for your pump (the yellow/red one)

2. Go up the Y axis until you’re at your head height (probably about 20’).

3. Trace across the chart until the line for your head height intersects with your curve.

4. Go down to the x-axis to find the flow delivered at that head.

Ok that makes sense. I think it get it now.

 

[GBBUDD]

Try calling underwater warehouse Dan will talk to you about pumps

 

[Tjsherrill]

Looking forward to seeing your progress!

@cas can you help me understand (if you even had to worry about it) how you would calculate the water in motion for your falls: https://www.gardenpondforum.com/showcase/cass-pond.44/ ?

A couple of people are worried that my 8k gph is gonna feel like a trickle. Basically, I will have like 6-8 falls just like yours all stacked in a winding falls. so I am trying to figure out my water in transit. TIA

 

[Tjsherrill]

Try calling underwater warehouse Dan will talk to you about pumps

Will do. Ok to tell him someone from GardenPondForum told me to call?

 

[Tjsherrill]

@GBBUDD and @combatwombat I have been thinking the last 24 hours about this. I know you are not telling me to do anything. That said, I am concerned now that somehow my calcs are all wrong.

I am going to take a picture today and try to diagram out what I am thinking. I'll share and get your take if thats ok.

One other point of reference: if my most of my drops looked like: https://www.gardenpondforum.com/showcase/cass-pond.44/ I'd be pretty happy. I am hoping for some trickles but also some sheets.

 

[Tjsherrill]

@GBBUDD and @combatwombat thanks a ton for all the responses and working through this with me.

 

[combatwombat]

@GBBUDD and @combatwombat thanks a ton for all the responses and working through this with me.

I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say it's our pleasure. We love watching these projects come together. And, personally, I like to think that a little piece of advice here or there left it's footprint on a beautiful feature.

The general guidance for having a "decent looking waterfall" is to shoot for 100 gph of flow per inch of width of your falls. I'd say more like 125-150. That's what Team Aquascape and their contractors shoot for on average builds, and their falls always look amazing. Now, that's just a rule of thumb and applies mostly to average backyard ponds with a single waterfall drop.

Would love to get @cas info on their waterfall details, but it looks like probably 150 gph/inch. Also, I don't know what @cas intake is like, but if you don't have a pondless basin to worry about (pond with skimmer for instance), you don't really worry about water in motion. It doesn't really matter.

If you want gushing falls in one spot and slow trickles in others, you would "simply" (building awesome waterfalls is tough!) adjust the width of your falls at those locations accordingly. 8000 gph at 150 gph/inch, by this rule of thumb would get you a decent waterfall that's about 53" wide. That's a huge waterfall! I think reality tells us that as you go wider, you likely need to increase gph/inch to maintain the look of a small falls.

So, let's say you have 3 areas of drop and you have 8,000 gph to work with. You want one of them to be a real gusher, so you have a single drop that's maybe 24" wide. Water will really gush through that. Then you want one area that just trickles down. You could do one very wide drop at that elevation or break it up into lots of tiny falls whose width all add up to 50+ inches.

Each time you change elevation, you have your full 8,000 gph to work with again (kind of).

Does that make sense?

 

[GBBUDD]

@GBBUDD and @combatwombat I have been thinking the last 24 hours about this. I know you are not telling me to do anything. That said, I am concerned now that somehow my calcs are all wrong.

I am going to take a picture today and try to diagram out what I am thinking. I'll share and get your take if thats ok.

One other point of reference: if my most of my drops looked like: https://www.gardenpondforum.com/showcase/cass-pond.44/ I'd be pretty happy. I am hoping for some trickles but also some sheets.

You picked one of my favorites here at gpf. But I will add you have a much different take on the falls you have extreme height and width.

As you can see her falls is recessed back from her sides which help control the splash.

But imo have the little trickle coming in from the side or branching out on its own is as interesting as any main waterfall is like its taking you on an adventure. And I strong advice those and splitting the main falls around a Boulder. There's so many versions you can do with that incredible hill.

It will be a challange it will be lots of trial and error. but sometimes the error is the best looking.

Just don't short cut the liner. A leak is a terrible thing to have a small are where water escapes from can add up to hundreds over the corse of the day .

I'm jealous I just rebuilt one of my falls and it's a step in the bucket by comparison . But I'm happy with it the one before was hardly anything

it's amazing how bad a faterfall looks with a fast shutter it catches all the detail and blurs infidelity to an area . The moving water looks so much better I ll have to get a long exposure on a cloudy day

 

[GBBUDD]

Will do. Ok to tell him someone from GardenPondForum told me to call?

Absolutely I have told him I plug his help here all the time