I'm so upset! Two dead Koi! l

[audioenvy]

I’m getting the impression that you also don’t understand how a pond breather works.
Why do you think the effect of an aerator is different from a pond breather?
Both serve the purpose of exposing water surface to air by circulating the water.

When you say pond breather this is what everyone including me thinks you mean:

 

[audioenvy]

An aerator does not just circulate water. It pushes thousands of small air bubbles into the water (preferably at a depth deep enough that oxygen is dissolved as it rises to the suface). If your "breather" is just circulating water in a tiny hole it's going to add a totally inconsequential amount of oxygen to a pond.

 

[audioenvy]

If the attached image is the device you are referring to when you say "pond breather" I will bet you $1000 it makes a completely immeasurable difference on the total dissolved oxygen level in the pond.

Circulating the water may help prevent pockets of stagnant water where oxygen is depleted--and that may be sufficient for the fish load. But if the water is frozen over other than a tiny hole, just circulating the water will not introduce new oxygen into the water. Circulating the water in a manner sufficient to homogenize the oxygen will also homogenize the temperature, right?

 

[callingcolleen1]

Those pumps are DC aquarium pumps made in China.
Similar to Jebao.
Chinese pumps typically have a high failure rate. Perhaps they are improving on their technology. I hope so.
I don't know what the UL rating is on Periha, but you can't even find them for sale in Canada.
Specifications are hard to find, but I doubt they are rated for outdoor use.

You can be sure that Colleen's pumps use more than 40 watts.

Colleen, pond breathers are not anti-koi devices. They work for all fish. Pond breathers keep water healthy, no matter what fish are living in it.
If you had been following AngelaM's thread with an open mind regarding the history of her fish, you should remember that they were most likely exposed to high ammonia levels before Angela took possession of them.

actually my pumps are quite low watt and was suprised when I bought them. They are magnetic drive and use less than 50 watts. I have three low watt pumps that keep all four connecting ponds circulating during winter. Works very well and I hardly use heater as circulating pumps keep ice down very well in upper ponds. Have not used my heater now for about two weeks even though night time temps below -10 C. If you run a pump you won't have to use the expenisve heater very much. I could just run one pump from bottom pond to top and save even more Electric power.

 

[MitchM]

If the attached image is the device you are referring to when you say "pond breather" I will bet you $1000 it makes a completely immeasurable difference on the total dissolved oxygen level in the pond....

If I was a betting person, I would definitely take that bet.

...and the myth that moving water will prevent a pond from freezing over is just that - a myth.
I have 2 feet of ice to prove it. Having vigorous circulation on my pond only extended my ice free time by about 4 weeks.
For some to say otherwise, (not you, @audioenvy) shows a lack of knowledge of how/why ice forms on a pond plus a lot of arrogance.

...

Nobody on here would recommend not using an aerator in the summer even though the entire surface of the water is free of ice and therefore serves as a HUGE "pond breather." There are two reasons: (1) more oxygen is required when fish are being fed and (2) warm water cannot hold anywhere near as much dissolved oxygen as cold water. Water at 40 degrees holds 60% more oxygen than water at 80 degrees all other things being equal.

For some ponds, the extra oxygen in the water and the reduced oxygen requirement (due to not feeding) are enough all by themselves that so long as harmful gasses can escape there is no need to reintroduce oxygen to the stagnant water during the winter. But a tiny hole in the ice adds no appreciable oxygen to the water. That's my only point.

Keep in mind that oxygen and carbon dioxide levels in a pond are independent of each other. It's not enough just to provide a source of oxygen. Fish can still die when there is a sufficient oxygen level. If there is too high a concentration of carbon dioxide, the fish will not be able to use the oxygen that's available.
- so- , gas exchange is the important thing to focus on for providing a healthy environment for your fish.


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[callingcolleen1]

An aerator does not just circulate water. It pushes thousands of small air bubbles into the water (preferably at a depth deep enough that oxygen is dissolved as it rises to the suface). If your "breather" is just circulating water in a tiny hole it's going to add a totally inconsequential amount of oxygen to a pond.

it only keeps a tiny little hole open in the ice, it does not bring any air bubbles down deep, and the device falls over and it often gets covered in snow, closing off the teeny tiny hole. I have at least 50 pounds of koi , two koi that are at least 15 pounds each and 27 years old and wintered every winter under the ice with my pumps running.
I do use an aerator as well all summer but with the extreme cold they tend to condensate here in Canada and freeze shut after -25
I myself would never trust that little tiny device that is only 40 watts to keep my koi safe. First of all I am in Canada and the ground here freezes 6 feet down some years, like this year, and you would get at least two feet of ice using that device, and most peoples ponds are only 4 feet deep, that would leave only two feet of space under the ice for all my large koi. It just would never work alone by itself. Plus I run 4 large connecting ponds and need to keep all four ponds running all together. I am able to get away with running only one heater as the top ponds are all pumped to a maximum, and so water is always at the same level as the ice, so ice melts very fast from the running water. Last year I added the fourth large 5 foot deep pond as the koi are getting so very large. I use cattle panel cold frames to cover the 3 of the four ponds and that works so great at keeping the ice away. Its so good to meet you and I will have to check out your thread. Do you have one?
I have this winter thread https://www.gardenpondforum.com/threads/my-pond-runs-all-winter-zone-2-3.10570/page-87#post-370813 sometimes I ramble on about my fairy gardens and guppies, but I do have lots of video on my ponds running all winter as well.

 

[Lisak1]

I run my waterfall at full speed all winter long and this is what it looks like - complete ice cover:

 

[callingcolleen1]

I run my waterfall at full speed all winter long and this is what it looks like - complete ice cover:

View attachment 108844

yes my ponds all looked like that as well for many years, and the water ran nicely under the ice all year bringing oxygen to the big koi and keeping water fresh. You do not have to cover the ponds as the ice will cover the ponds for you...

 

[cas]

I'm not sure I should jump into this conversation, but here goes.....

For 10 years I only used an aerator in the winter for my 1000 gallon pond, with the air stone down about 12". I never had problems with the airline freezing, but a couple weeks every February I was outside with hot water opening up a whole in the ice. I didn't lose fish those years, but every spring my water was cloudy until I started up my pump in the spring.

Then I read @callingcolleen1 thread about how she moved the water all winter and her water was clear in the spring, but I decided I wasn't up to having my pump running all year long.

Next I read the thread about the pond breather, so three years ago I used the pond breather in addition to the aerator. I have noticed that my water is clearer in the spring due to the deeper water circulation the pond breather is providing. I also had total ice cover this January for three weeks and did not go outside with hot water to open a whole in the ice since I had the pond breather. When the ice was off the pond I went out to check on the fish and so far everyone is doing fine.

I continue to use the air stone in addition to the pond breather because 1) I like having a back up and 2) the aerator keeps the ice thinner so that it melts quicker in the spring.

So I just wanted to say I am grateful for everyone's stories on how they overwinter their fish, because I have benefited from them all.

 

[cas]

So how thick do you think the ice is on your pond @Lisak1 ?

 

[callingcolleen1]

If I was a betting person, I would definitely take that bet.

...and the myth that moving water will prevent a pond from freezing over is just that - a myth.


Mitch my ponds are Proof that running water helps get rid of the ice. If you ran your pond all winter the ice would not freeze so thick and you could raise the water level to the ice level in spring to simulate a natural spring runoff and that would melt your ice faster. I used to get two feet of ice on my bottom pond as that pond the water falls below the ice. If you left your pumps running all winter with good filter then you would just need to raise the water level and with the pump moving the water it would melt the ice way faster like in my bottom pond.

 

[Lisak1]

When you say pond breather this is what everyone including me thinks you mean:

I think that might be only you @audioenvy ! I'm not even sure what that is?

And @callingcolleen1 you're right - you didn't say no one should use a pond breather. Just no one with a combination of koi and cold weather.

After reading the 1 star reviews, I read the positive reviews (over 50% were 5 star on Amazon). Just like here, there are people who love it and people who think it's worthless.

The question seems to be what your winter goal is - heat your pond? Add oxygen? Vent gasses? Keep ice from forming completely? And more importantly - what do fish require?

 

[Lisak1]

So how thick do you think the ice is on your pond @Lisak1 ?

No clue - I'm not adventurous like @addy1 with her drill! One of these days I plan to find out!

I personally think ice on a pond is a good thing - helps insulate the water and keep evaporation down. This is the first year since we've had the pond that we've had as many freezes and thaws and we definitely lost more water than we ever have.

 

[audioenvy]

For some to say otherwise, (not you, @audioenvy) shows a lack of knowledge of how/why ice forms on a pond plus a lot of arrogance.

- so- , gas exchange is the important thing to focus on for providing a healthy environment for your fish.

I think we agree on the ice thing and the gas exchange thing. What I'm not sure of is why there is seemingly a reluctance on the part of many to introduce air into the pond in winter. In order to sufficiently homogenize the oxygen and remove CO2 there will also be a homogenization of temperature. You can't mix the water enough to prevent oxygen-depleted zones and remove CO2 without also equalizing the water temperature. If a breather is working correctly, it is homogenizing the water including the water temperature. So why not keep an aerator running as well?

@MitchM, maybe your argument has never been that additional aeration is dangerous or unnecessary, I don't know.

I fully agree that simply keeping the water moving is not a good way to prevent it from freezing over. If it were me, I'd make sure I was introducing outside air (preferably warm air) with an aerator as well as preventing the pond from freezing over with a pond de-icer or cattle heater or cover or whatever.

That said, if something is working for you and the pond conditions stay the same from year to year then keep doing what you're doing.

 

[MitchM]

... If a breather is working correctly, it is homogenizing the water including the water temperature. So why not keep an aerator running as well?....

People seem to be apprehensive about cold water and any circulation, from pumps or aeration will equalize the pond water temperature.
I will always recommend a backup for periods of ice cover.
Aerators work well in milder climates, 2 pond breathers would be a good idea in colder climates.

....or you could have your pond in a back yard protected from the wind, surrounded closely by other houses, covered with cattle panels and plastic....

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