If you could start all over

[EVMIII]

Waterbug,

Thanks for the outstanding explanation of the benefits. I am rethinking my plan trying to work this into the layout. Is their a minimum size basin that you think would be the smallest and still give the benefits you mention?I've noticed a few in pictureswith basins that look to be about 2x2 and no more than a foot deep.

Bud

 

[fishin4cars]

I like that idea with the catch basin. Something I wish I had learned more about before my build. If/When I do re-model the Koi pond I will highly consider working that in to the re-design. I would think having a bog that fed into the basin through a waterfall would add to the clarity. Not sure of course because I have never tried it. I would also think a bigger basin would have added benefits at low cost as well. As Waterbug has pointed out, there are several options in additional filtration that could be tried in the basin itself.

 

[Waterbug]

Is their a minimum size basin that you think would be the smallest and still give the benefits you mention?

It just has to catch all the water coming in. It can be tweaked later to be made taller if needed. They can be pretty narrow (out from the pond wall) if you like.

To get the benefit of sweeping the bottom or moving bottom water it would have to extend to the bottom. That doesn't have to be vertical, it can follow the slope of a pond side if needed.

I've noticed a few in pictureswith basins that look to be about 2x2 and no more than a foot deep.

Do you have any links? I've never seen or heard of one before other than mine.

 

[Waterbug]

I was just reading another forum and was reminded of a possible down side to the catch basin, at least for some people. There are some pond builders who I respect who think a water fall can push debris to a skimmer. The catch basin would not do that. Obvious a waterfall can push stuff some distance. But I have never believed a falls was needed for a skimmer to work. To me the action is entirely a function of surface tension. When there is dust on the water I see it being pulled from across the pond to the skimmer a surprising distance. I think falls causing ripples does more to reduce surface tension and the pull of a skimmer. Wind can also reduce a skimmer's pull. There are lots of ponds with skimmers and no falls anyways. My skimmer worked great for what that's worth.

So to me it's a non-issue, but I think some people would disagree.

 

[Craig58]

I am thinking of my time and the energy i put into the pond and how it limits my time to go places .Retired so don't want to spend so much time here .Pond always limits where you can go and for how long .The dogs are easy drop them off with my son and done and can't do that with a fish pond .

I think this is kind of like what the topic about over filtration was talking about in one of the other forums. I have no idea about your pond setup but my feeling is that if you feel trapped by your pond, it's not currently designed to meet your lifestyle. As lifestyles change, the pond may need to be change. Off hand, if the daily/weekly maintenance is so high, it might be time to install a new filtration system that requires less daily work. A pond is no joy if it interferes with vacations!!!

I'd have no problem leaving our pond and Koi for 2-3 weeks. I'd have to have someone stop by and clean out the basket strainer in the pump after about two weeks but other than that, I can't think of anything else to be done. Maybe have them turn on the water hose timer to add some water if it was low. The fish can go weeks without being feed extra food but I can always find neighbors that are happy to stop by and sit by the pond and toss some food in every once in awhile.

Any chance you could change it somehow to make it easier for you to leave it? Are there specific issues you have? My guess is that it's related to cleaning the filters somehow.

Craig

 

[Mmathis]

But I have never believed a falls was needed for a skimmer to work. To me the action is entirely a function of surface tension. When there is dust on the water I see it being pulled from across the pond to the skimmer a surprising distance. I think falls causing ripples does more to reduce surface tension and the pull of a skimmer. Wind can also reduce a skimmer's pull. There are lots of ponds with skimmers and no falls anyways. My skimmer worked great for what that's worth.

So to me it's a non-issue, but I think some people would disagree.

When I first joined here and began searching for information, I recall reading somewhere [here vs. another forum vs. an article] that the best place for your skimmer depended on the prevailing winds in your area. Ideally, you want the wind to work WITH you so it can help push debris toward the skimmer.

And an FYI for you, WB! I liked your idea of a catch basin, but dropped it when things started overwhelming me. So, naturally, as soon as water is flowing out of the filter, there is turbulence everywhere. I came up with an after-factory design [] that's not too bad looking and actually works! It needs tweeking, but that's for another time. I strung several lengths of the thickest "pool noodles" across the area for the "basin." I just have the ropes on either side anchored in the rocks. Then I took some sheets of corrugated plastic and "creased" them so they would fit on top of the pool noodles, but hang into the water at whatever depth I needed, etc., etc. To keek the plactic in place from the force of the water, I adhered river pebbles along the bottom egdes. Anyway, not beautiful, but very functional!

 

[Waterbug]

When I first joined here and began searching for information, I recall reading somewhere [here vs. another forum vs. an article] that the best place for your skimmer depended on the prevailing winds in your area. Ideally, you want the wind to work WITH you so it can help push debris toward the skimmer.

Sounds great on paper.

 

[crsublette]

I would have:
1) made my water garden a little bigger and deeper
2) implemented tangential and gravity pond returns (TPRs, GPRs) to help create a current in an effort to help create a self cleaning pond
3) created an underground pit for my filtration.
4) created little extend areas along the side of my stream where I could place some plants, almost kind of creating like a mini bog type event to occur along my stream's sides.

I was just reading another forum and was reminded of a possible down side to the catch basin, at least for some people. There are some pond builders who I respect who think a water fall can push debris to a skimmer. The catch basin would not do that. Obvious a waterfall can push stuff some distance. But I have never believed a falls was needed for a skimmer to work. To me the action is entirely a function of surface tension. When there is dust on the water I see it being pulled from across the pond to the skimmer a surprising distance. I think falls causing ripples does more to reduce surface tension and the pull of a skimmer. Wind can also reduce a skimmer's pull. There are lots of ponds with skimmers and no falls anyways. My skimmer worked great for what that's worth.

Yeah, from my experience, I think waterfalls, fountains, bubblers, etc, do reduce the surface tension and reduces the pull to the Skimmer. I got a couple air diffusors, my center fountains, and a little waterfall. All this disturbance in a small watergarden has really reduced the effectivness of my skimmer. Quite a bit of debris eventually does make its way, scooting around the parameter, to the skimmer, but also there is a noticeable amount of debris that just becomes trapped due to all of the disturbance.

I was just reading another forum and was reminded of a possible down side to the catch basin, at least for some people. There are some pond builders who I respect who think a water fall can push debris to a skimmer. The catch basin would not do that.

Since my waterfall is where my long stream enters the resevoir, I am afraid the waterfall basin would act as a debris collector, pushing the debris down. My stream does collect a noticeable amount of debris. I think the basin is awesome idea as long as there is not a stream preceding the waterfall.

 

[Waterbug]

Yeah, from my experience, I think waterfalls, fountains, bubblers, etc, do reduce the surface tension and reduces the pull to the Skimmer.

This all has me thinking now. I never really paid it much mind at the time, I just kind of assumed all skimmers worked great. But one skimmer for a 14' x 11' pond, and the skimmer was on a short end, I never had any trapped debris. I'm going to add that as another catch basin benefit, unproven, but I'm thinking is true, #6, improves skimmer.

Since my waterfall is where my long stream enters the resevoir, I am afraid the waterfall basin would act as a debris collector, pushing the debris down. My stream does collect a noticeable amount of debris. I think the basin is awesome idea as long as there is not a stream preceding the waterfall.

Between my Upper pond flowed into my Triangle pond and there was a catch basin there. Inside of the basin I sewed together (I think 75%) shade cloth into a basket, PVC pipe for the rim, to collect debris because the overflow was the Upper pond's skimmer. Worked good. And if I didn't clean it for a few months and it clogged, no problem, just overflowed into the Triangle pond. One year I didn't clean it all summer and when I did found several fat Goldfish fry.

 

[crsublette]

But one skimmer for a 14' x 11' pond, and the skimmer was on a short end, I never had any trapped debris.

With my design (which isn't very friendly for a skimmer), it was water ripples that caused debris to be trapped, no where even near my skimmer. Since I essentially have an island in the middle of watergarden, the waterfall would push the trash to the sides and then the water ripples from my air diffusors would further push the debris to the sides. On occasion, a ripple would hit the side of the debris, like a leaf, pushing it out of the ripple knock back and forth; then, other times, the ripples would just help wedge the debris into my round rock wall until the debris would just sink. With my island in the center, the plants have grown so much to the point where the plants roots and foliage has almost divided the resevoir in half with a bit of space around the parameter where trash can sometimes scoot around to get to the skimmer. I would put the skimmer in this bit of space except this space is where my patio extends out, in like a peninsula. Heh, like I said, my design not very skimmer friendly.

This all has me thinking now. I never really paid it much mind at the time, I just kind of assumed all skimmers worked great.

Skimmer is extremely basic, only thing special is the weir door that prevents the debris from escaping the skimmer. Don't see how it could ever be the fault of a skimmer unless it was constructed in a very wierd design or the pump in the skimmer was not pulling enough water into the chamber.

Skimmer placement is my problem. I really gotta have two where one is on one half and another for the other half due to how my plants are growing and patio juts.

Between my Upper pond flowed into my Triangle pond and there was a catch basin there. Inside of the basin I sewed together (I think 75%) shade cloth into a basket, PVC pipe for the rim, to collect debris because the overflow was the Upper pond's skimmer.

Kind of figured something like that in the basin.

I bet a fella, while cleaning the debris out of a rock bottom stream, could make a basket thing using a 300 micron mesh to catch the stream debris during cleaning.

Nice.

 

[EVMIII]

Thanks all for the input, here's what I'm thinking now:

Pond will basically be kidney shaped (12x25x4)
Bottom drain, skimmer external filter (tbd) to returns
Skippy styled filter at on end, pump fed, gravity drained to water fall catch basin
Other end will have a slightly raised bog ( maybe 4x6), pump fed, gravity return
Hopefully this will be overly filtered for ease of mx.

Thoughts? What am I missing? Thanks again. Getting excited, drained the pool last night, will cut in a few drains in the morning.

Thanks

Bud

 

[Mucky_Waters]

I see no mention of settlement chamber. Where will the bottom drain go to?

 

[Waterbug]

Not enough details for an opinion. Even a simple diagram would help. Something like this for each circuit.

Skimmer -> pump -> Skippy -> TPRs
BD -> filter -> pump -> bog -> falls ->catch basin.

As soon as you provide that my next comment would probably be...not enough info, need a drawn diagram. We have a saying in software, "garbage in, garbage out". It means if the info going into a decision is poor the decision coming out will also be poor.

Your size pond and shape would normally need 2 bottom drains, one pump per drain. This assumes you want the BD to keep the pond bottom pretty clean. Size of BD pipe and pump size is important also. It's the little things that can mess up a design.

 

[crsublette]

Hmmm, well, not really overly filtered at all to some standards. It is actually pretty basic, but not as basic as simply just having nothing more than a bog. To me, I think if you add a S&G filter in there, then you'll be very good.

Yeah, I agree with WB. You would need 2 bottom drains for a kidney shaped pond, such as the kidney diagram in post #13 at understanding currents. The bottom drains are just the suction gateway where the debris becomes introduced to your mechnical filtration then to your bio-filtration. I have seen bottom drains with pumps to feed multiple S&G (sand and gravel) filters and I have also seen bottom drains gravity flow feed into settlement chambers. Remember, mechanical filtration can only filter the debris that enters it. If you lack water currents, then there is a much greater possibility of debris settling and never reaching the mechanical filtration.

If you want a really good mechanical filter, then look into how to build a S&G filter. These filters are basiclly bogs, except the S&G has finer filtration with the use of sand and no plants. After rotary drum filters, I think S&G filters are the 2nd best mechanical filter and they are extremely simple. You just have to follow the rules: 1) each rock layer, prior to sand layer, must be at least 3" deep so to provide enough weight to prevent the layers from shifting too much; 2) do not have your flow rate too high otherwise risk dislodging the layers; 3) use a very weak blower to clean the layers otherwise risk dislodging the layers. The aforementioned "how to" thread and follow up comments are very good. With their build, a 55 gallon barrel can work with a 2000 gph flow rate to filter 2000 gallons and cleanout takes a couple of minutes by simply attaching a weak blower and flipping the switch. S&G filters have been also heard of being a very crude bio-filter as well. You can even bury these underground. The construction of S&G filter is no more difficult than a Skippy; they really are not that complex to construct. A S&G filter is actually a crude revision of the cheap reverse osmosis systems that are being used in third world countries to create clean, drinkable water.

Only thing is you can not create a pressurized S&G filter so the output of a S&G filter is gravity flow much like a Skippy.

I would probably do a ...

Skimmer pump > S&G (you could bury this next to your skimmer) > pump > TPRs
BD -> pump > S&G > Skippy > pump > bog > falls (you could easily hide the S&G and Skippy behind your falls and bog)

I have heard of fellas finding crud pockets in S&G filters when dismantling them, even after clean out, so it would be best to have the crud pockets in the S&G filter rather than in your bog where your crud pockets would forever remain. Also, your Skippy and Bog will become more effective with less debris being pumped into it.

If you ever want to get fancy and really increase your bio-load processing capability, then you could convert your current Skippy into a fluidized bio-filter by simply changing a few plumbing pieces in the Skippy container.

This is all getting pretty fancy. I have heard of folks being just fine with a couple of S&G filters (where one is mechanical and other bio-filter) and that is all or others only have a skippy or just a bog.

It all depends on how much you want to push the limits of your pond's ecosystem.

 

[EVMIII]

Thanks for the input, I'm definitely listening and learning, unfortunately I am limited to this tablet for now so a diagram it not an option.

BD -> pump -> filter(tbd)-> skippy -> waterfall
Skimmer -> filter(tbd) ->pump> TPRs
Pump (low volume)-> bog -> waterfall (gravity)

I'm taking a look today at a couple local koi ponds to see some of these concepts in application. Pool is drained and drain holes cut, should be getting the first loads of dirt next weekend.

Thanks again. Bud