Identifying color/scale names of fish...

[capewind]

I am really starting to have fun with the hybrids... Just dont know what they will be LOL. Love all your babies too! Unlike say mixed breed dogs, if these fish are really sterile, it causes no harm to anyone's gene pools to have them... and they will definately add variety

 

[fishin4cars]

I've heard the sterile statement before. I'm not sure if that is 100% fact or not. I can't see why they would be sterile. felines, canine's, reptiles, can hybrinize and not be sterile, Wonder why not Koi and Goldfish. they are both in the carp family. Just saying.

 

[addy1]

Your mutt babies are pretty! I have ended up with a lot of white and gold/red mixes

 

[capewind]

Hi Larkin,

I have been trying to research if the hybrids are really sterile or not, and the best analogy that makes any sense compares them to mules. When breeding a male donkey to a female horse, similar, but different species, with different number of chromosones, ALL of the male mules that resulted were sterile. The female mules on the other hand, have been document approximately 60 times, from the 1500s, to 2007 in having in fact been fertile and reproduced. In the case of the 2007 foal, DNA testing confirmed the mare was a mule, and her 'son' was in fact hers off spring.

Based on the reading I have done so far, I still dont have an answer BUT if koi/comet hybrids were HGHLY fertile, I dont think we would be asking this question. I mean look at what people are doing in dogs with the "designer breeds"... Intentionally mixing two known breeds... Why wouldnt fish people do it too? Then take it a step further, that dedicated koi breeders do misc crosses (within Koi) with the hopes of developing new colors/patterns, etc.

It is human nature to "mess" with things. I am seeing some really pretty hybrids. Why wouldnt someone try to do it? I am in now way PROMOTING that anyone should be TRYING to make a "new breed"... I want a variety of pet fish. IF nature takes its course and they interbreed, so be it, BUT if I go through the efforts to do an intentional spawing, I want to know when I isolate out specific KOI to breed, that they are infact KOI.

Over the next few years, we have planned at least two more ponds (one large pond, the other for plants only), but I have half a mind to throw any known hybrids into the 'plant pond' to see if anything happens.

 

[capewind]

Thanks addy, I would love to see your hybrids! I even think my blackish comets are 'cute' so more interesting colors are sure to be pretty as well.

I would especially love to see young hybrids to help "train" my eyes better of the possible varieties in structure. I was thinking most hybrids had that hump behind their heads, but since learned that they dont always have it for example. Or say with a comet baby, who looks exactly like a comet in all aspects of structure and color has barbels, well, I know someone had an "affair" with a koi LOL.

 

[addy1]

capewind, my fish are only goldfish and shubunkins. I don't have any koi, no koi hybrids. But tons of different gf and shubie colors.

 

[capewind]

I like them all

When we redid this year, the long term goal is a big pond for OUR koi (at least a 40 x 50 liner), and the "small pond" (6500 gallons) I could have for MY comets and shubunkins... HIS bog (2500 gallons if holding nothing but water) is presently home to the comets, and bigger babies. HE also needs a plant pond (or two) but those will be small (no more than 2000 gallons max) and I have already hinted to him, that the PLANT PONDS would be a good place to hold any babies we want to try to grow out (til they are big enough to go into whichever pond).

Once we get in THE koi pond, I want to add more GF varieties to the 6500 gallon pond. So many people are negative about GF (I dont mean pond people), but I think they are really neat. Different body structures and finnage, and colors... oh my;-)

 

[HARO]

I've heard the sterile statement before. I'm not sure if that is 100% fact or not. I can't see why they would be sterile. felines, canine's, reptiles, can hybrinize and not be sterile, Wonder why not Koi and Goldfish. they are both in the carp family. Just saying.

Have to disagree with you on this, Larkin. Koi and goldfish are two different species, whereas all domestic cats (or dogs) are the SAME species. Apparently, if you cross a lion with a tiger (ditterent species), the resulting young are sterile. My dad had an uncle who crossed Siberian wolves with German shepherds to get guard dogs for the German railway system, and apparently none of the young ever reproduced. However, I have heard that female wolf hybrids can sometimes be bred back to dogs, so this would be in keeping with the findings on jenny mules. As for reptiles, I'm not sure what you are referring to. Different colour morphs of bearded lizards, for instance, will breed, but they are the same species. Most of the snake "crosses" I've encountered were the result of mis-identification on the part of the breeder, but some of the garter/ribbon snakes may well hybridize. It would be interesting to see if an alligator can cross with a croc and produce fertile young!
John

 

[leet13]

From all the books I have seen It's a hi bekko, But as stated, Mark calls his by a different name, ( I can't remember exactly) Orengi ?? But once you hear the name you know it is the same fish as the words describe them both.
I have another fish that is getting some debate on what it's called. I thought it was a Ochiba Shigure, But after several debates it's taken on a name I had never heard of until the debate started. Anyone care to take a shot? Hint, the Ki or yellow has a mettalic shene.

What is it called if an Ochiba Shigure looking koi does NOT have the "net" pattern but has same colors? When I got my last two, one is a gray/blue metallic with yellow and darker gray spots-- an Ochiba Shigure is the only one I have come across that looks the closest to what I have. Just curious.

 

[fishin4cars]

Leet, It would be a Ochiba if it doesn't have the net pattern.
John, They are both similar carp species. There are some hybrids that cross that can and do reproduce. Now what can and can't I don't have a clue. I'm no expert on that subject so I'm doing as much listening and learning on this as everyone else. There are some that say that long fin koi originally came from Hybrid crossings. That's why they wouldn't recognize them at many koi shows for many years. Still frowned on my many die hard koi enthusiast.
I know that in reptiles some species can cross and produce hybrids that can produce. One is the Rankins Lizard- Pogona brevis, Lawson's dragon, Pogona Henrylawsoni and the Bearded dragon Pogana minima. I don't get what would be different for Goldfish-Carassius auratus, and Koi - Cyprinus carpio. OH, Maybe I do see what the difference would be. I guess I just learned that C. for Goldfish is Carassius, where C in Koi is Cyprinus, Two completely different species. Hmmmm learn something new everyday.

 

[HARO]

Thanks for the info, Larkin. I have no first-hand experience with reptiles other than snakes, I find it interesting that these three Pogona sp. can produce fertile young. More research for a cold winter's day! I remember well when Dr. Herbert Axelrod introduced the first long-finned koi to North America; it created quite a split in the koi community. Purists knocked them down as koi/comet mutts, but many garden-pond types loved their flowing finnage. Never did hear for certain if they were hybrids or mutations. They sure have come a long way since the 50's and 60's, though!
And yes, I've always believed that the day you stop learning is about three days before your funeral!
John