I'd like to make my pond more shallow, any ideas?

Joined
Apr 10, 2010
Messages
3,214
Reaction score
1,299
Location
Phoenix AZ
Yeah, that won't work (BRayPond's diagram). The arrow you have going from the pipe to the pump is the path you wish the water would take. But it takes the easiest path and that would be above the gravel. So the pump wouldn't draw any water out of the pipe and therefore the arrows at the bottom showing the water going into the pipe wouldn't happen. You end up with the same result whether the pipe is there or not.

Like Addy said, 2 pumps can be used. The vertical pipe in your diagram would be replaced with a large enough diameter pipe that you could place a pump inside and let it go to the bottom. The vertical pipe has to be extended above water level or the pump will just pull water from inside the pipe, least resistance, the water would just circulate inside the pipe. You could in theory extend the vertical pipe all the way to the waterfall if the design will allow. You need a basically straight shot to the pump for maintenance. The pump cord is long enough too.

The second pump, at the bottom of the gravel, can also be an air pump. Cheaper to run, very tricky to install.

I call this a down flow filter. Not optimal because it draws your worst water, on top of the gravel bed, down into the gravel.


Up flow, singe pump.
I like simple. This diagram is what I call a catch basin.
CatchBasin.jpg

It forces the water from the falls down into the bottom of the pond. In your case you would have a gravel level above that bottom arrow and your bottom pipe with holes. No vertical pipe. Basically the catch basin acts as your vertical pipe and the water flows in the opposite direction. Your pump could be placed anywhere you like in the pond. I like it in the skimmer. If on the bottom the pump clogs and could drain the pond if something bad happens.

In this set up water with the most O2 goes to the bottom, into the gravel to help bacteria. It's the cleanest water if any filters are added before the falls so gravel doesn't clog as fast. The up flow pushes, in theory, stuff up off the floor, out of the gravel. Self washing, in theory. In reality it's doesn't help much without a huge pump. But still better than down flow I think.

The other benefit to the catch basin is a very still surface which makes viewing the fish better. I got the idea from high end Koi keepers who floated a rope on the surface around the falls to stop ripples. The catch basin also collects any foam instead of having to see it floating around the surface.

I build the basin with mortared rock. Pretty easy to build, nothing fancy. Here's a picture of one completed.
koibasin.jpg

You can see how still the water is in the pond and how the bubbles aren't floating around.
 
Joined
Oct 29, 2011
Messages
7
Reaction score
0
Location
Bakersfield, CA
Oops, somehow I missed your comment Waterbug. I didn't mention in the drawings that the black line with arrows on it is tubing. I should have made that more apparent as it looks similar to the black "call out" lines for the text (see why the architectural design didn't go anywhere for me ;) ). Now that I have reversed the arrows and added the "T" do you think the pump will actually push water both up the waterfall and down the pipe & through the gravel?
 
Joined
Oct 29, 2011
Messages
7
Reaction score
0
Location
Bakersfield, CA
I was drawing the tubing pretty quickly, it would go from the outlet of the pump and be channeled under the gravel until it would reach the clean out pipe, or would this crush the tubing and stop water flow? Do I need the clean out pipe? I could pipe more directly from the pump to the bottom.

Sorry I have so many newbie questions. I just want to do it right. Thanks again!
 
Joined
Apr 10, 2010
Messages
3,214
Reaction score
1,299
Location
Phoenix AZ
added the "T" do you think the pump will actually push water both up the waterfall and down the pipe & through the gravel?
Can't really tell, but I don't think it will. Depends on the 2 pressures. If's easier for the water to flow thru the gravel, which would be my guess, you'd get no water in the falls. If gravel started to clog more water would go to the falls and less and less to the gravel. I mean maybe you get lucky.

You'd have to put valves on both pipes after the tee and try and dial it in so both had equal pressures. But I don't know how you'd do that...how would you know how much, if any water was going into the gravel? Pressure gauges? Flow meter on just the falls pipe and compute the difference? A manifold that you could see inside? I'm just not into making things as complicated as possible...I mean I'm not into it any more. In my day I sure was.

You're running into what I think is the toughest design challenges with water. It doesn't act intuitively. We put a on a tee and expect 50% of the water to go down each pipe. Makes logical sense. We build a settling tank and expect stuff will settle there. Water has its own ideas, its own set of rules that we generally never really run into in life. It still trips me up if I don't really give the simplest designs a lot of thought. My latest project is to open a garage door with water. Seems simple... Probably only take me 9 tries and a couple of years.
 
Joined
Apr 10, 2010
Messages
3,214
Reaction score
1,299
Location
Phoenix AZ
would this crush the tubing and stop water flow?
Depends on the tubing and how it's run. Most tube isn't made for being under gravel so I would expect it too crush, but no way to tell how much.
 

addy1

water gardener / gold fish and shubunkins
Moderator
Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Messages
44,908
Reaction score
29,895
Location
Frederick, Maryland
Showcase(s):
1
Hardiness Zone
6b
Country
United States
I was drawing the tubing pretty quickly, it would go from the outlet of the pump and be channeled under the gravel until it would reach the clean out pipe, or would this crush the tubing and stop water flow? Do I need the clean out pipe? I could pipe more directly from the pump to the bottom.

Sorry I have so many newbie questions. I just want to do it right. Thanks again!

I used 2 inch pvc with slots cut in it under my pea gravel. It will do well without crushing. A clean out pipe is a just in case pipe, if your 2 inch gets full of muck, you can stick a hose in it and push water back through it. With your design your cleanout would need the top above water level or the water would skip the gravel and just flow out the cleanout pipe, path of least resistance. The clean out pipe is usually at the end of your pipe run, not where the water enters the piping.
I have a leaf basket before my pump to keep any large items from being drawn into the pump (external) and from being pushed into the pvc under the pea gravel.

I have a 4200 gph pump for my bog which is around 2500 gallons (water size without pea gravel), the pond is around 11k. I get plenty of flow through the gavel. 2800 lbs of pea gravel.

I also ran two pvc lines (27 foot long), in a 5 foot wide bog to get good water flow through the gravel. My stream is on a separate pump, mainly because the head pressure is over 50 feet, the pond pump could not handle that head pressure.
 
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
Messages
1,305
Reaction score
806
Location
carolinas
Hardiness Zone
8a
Dang, should have thought of this sooner, how about filling the deep area with, black milk crates...

tie them together with black nylon to make a solid structure to reduce the depth of water that presents a hazard.

Black objects are more or less invisible in water...

Regards, andy
 
Joined
Apr 10, 2010
Messages
3,214
Reaction score
1,299
Location
Phoenix AZ
When putting ponds in a public space the issue of depth comes up since code normally limits depth to 18-24". I've often thought about a creating false bottoms, never thought of plastic crates, very interesting. Everything I ever came up with I worried about the child getting struck or tangled up in whatever I was thinking about. That was a horror that really just scared me too much to ever try a false bottom.
 

addy1

water gardener / gold fish and shubunkins
Moderator
Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Messages
44,908
Reaction score
29,895
Location
Frederick, Maryland
Showcase(s):
1
Hardiness Zone
6b
Country
United States
milk crates would work with a very good bottom drain(s) setup. There would be a ton of muck collecting that you would not be able to clean well. Arizona code is 18 inches for any water, over that you need child proof fencing. Here if we have over 100 feet of land to the nearest neighbor we do not need to fence, we have way more than that.
 

minnowman

minnowman
Joined
Sep 3, 2011
Messages
269
Reaction score
142
Location
Thibodaux,Louisiana
Showcase(s):
1
Hardiness Zone
9a
The attached sketch shows a possible way to split the pump output between the waterfall and the gravel filter. Ideally the pipe leading to the filter bed would be large enough to drain all of the pump output when the valve is wide open. Partial closing of the valve would allow some of the water to flow down the waterfall . Closing the valve would send all the water to the waterfall.
I've seen a swimming pool conversion to a pond before and it was beautiful. That person used the existing sand filter and pump, but with larger sand. Their flow was down through the gravel. Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.
 

Attachments

  • sketch.pdf
    89 KB · Views: 270

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Members online

No members online now.

Forum statistics

Threads
31,505
Messages
517,981
Members
13,713
Latest member
Dreamyholi

Latest Threads

Top