I thought I knew what I was doing!

[addy1]

lol I dug out some yellow flag last year, yep they anchor themselves well! I had the same experience, no smell, no build up, clear water.
The plants do great, it took around 2 years for them to really take off, they needed the fish poo, once the fish grew in size the plants grew better.

I can see some decomposing plant matter from roots and whatnot, but that's hardly the stuff of nightmares.

I rake the surface in the spring removing a lot of the decomposed winter/fall killed off plant parts. Hardly anything deep in the gravel. Most of the plants are shallow rooted.

 

[Waterbug]

@Waterbug - if the water that is fed into a "bog" is clear of debris, then where is all the debris you're talking about coming from? I can see some decomposing plant matter from roots and whatnot, but that's hardly the stuff of nightmares.

I did dig up a good portion of my bog last year - "Irises Gone Wild" is the name of my reality TV show - and found no smell, no build up of gunk or good, and the water was crystal clear. But my plants go crazy in my bog - see previous reference to irises - so clearly they are being fed from the stuff in the water that you can't see.

If anyone wants to know how deep your iris roots will go, I can answer that - deeper than you think! Don't turn your back on them - you'll be sorry!

Pond water is generally not very clean. It may appear clean to the naked eye from a distance, but up close or even under a micro scope there's a lot of stuff. Even extremely good mechanical filters, such as sand filters, only catch stuff down to the 20-25 micron range. A good D.E. filter gets stuff down to 3-5 micron range. But neither of these is very common in water gardens. So "clean" means a lot of stuff is still in the water. That's one source.

The bigger source is bacteria that grows in the anaerobic environment. Bog/gravel filters were after all first used for the large surface area for bacteria. So no surprise it's a great environment for anaerobic bacteria. These bacteria create a film attached to gravel surface to anchor them selves. This happens on pretty much all surfaces in the pond. You can feel the slippery surfaces, thats the film. These bacteria have a life cycle and when they die the film decays and becomes muck.

If a person sees muck building up on the pond bottom the same process is certainly happening inside the bog.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

The bigger source is bacteria that grows in the anaerobic environment. Bog/gravel filters were after all first used for the large surface area for bacteria. So no surprise it's a great environment for anaerobic bacteria. These bacteria create a film attached to gravel surface to anchor them selves. This happens on pretty much all surfaces in the pond. You can feel the slippery surfaces, thats the film. These bacteria have a life cycle and when they die the film decays and becomes muck.

I can't believe that I missed this.
I think a good reading of my article https://www.gardenpondforum.com/articles/periphyton-part-1.9/ (among many other scientific sources) is warranted.
Biofilm exists in aerobic, anoxic and anaerobic environments. Biofilms do not naturally die as a unit but undergo a continuous cycle of death and replacement and sloughing-off and can reach thicknesses of several millimeters. All aquatic biofilms produce Muck as an end-product of natural decay which is not restricted to anaerobic environments. In fact, the vast majority of organic breakdown (decay) occurs in aerobic conditions.
'Bogs' only develop areas that are anaerobic due to the accumulation of organic debris (muck). A 'bog' only becomes "a great environment for anaerobic bacteria" if this organic debris is allowed to accumulate.

 

[brokensword]

I just dug up my entire bog and there was absolutely no bad smell whatsoever and I know it was clogged because the water was trying to escape up the cleanout and against the liner walls. So maybe it has to get even worse but it was definitely clogged...I'm still a firm believer in upflow wetland filters...

 

[Waterbug]

There are many species of anaerobic bacteria that don't need what most people think of as organic debris.

The concept that peoples' pond water is so clean it doesn't contain organic debris is...well, kind of not really understanding what's going on in a pond. Put some pond water on a slide and take a look through a microscope...lots of organic material, lots of creatures. I do hear it a lot...even that their pond water was tested and was cleaner than their drinking water...but pretty sure they didn't actually switch to drinking their pond water.

It takes a bit logic gymnastics to consider bogs as not only great filters but also that they remain clean. Great filters because of bacteria, but clean because nothing organic growing (and dying) inside them even though bacteria is organic. It hurts my head. But that's the internet for ya.

 

[Usman]

I just dug up my entire bog and there was absolutely no bad smell whatsoever and I know it was clogged because the water was trying to escape up the cleanout and against the liner walls. So maybe it has to get even worse but it was definitely clogged...I'm still a firm believer in upflow wetland filters...

ye same here it does get muddy u cud say but never smelled bad running water usually doesn't smell , if flow is stopped it will smell bad and it always does its job , cleans water no mater how clogged it looks some how so ful marks for bog filter , the one thats hybrid gravel filter used as bog will malfunction if clogged but natural model dont .

 

[brokensword]

It takes a bit logic gymnastics to consider bogs as not only great filters but also that they remain clean. Great filters because of bacteria, but clean because nothing organic growing (and dying) inside them even though bacteria is organic. It hurts my head. But that's the internet for ya.

Doesn't take much gymnastics at all; I have an old grapefruit tree planted in a large pot and every few years I pull the whole thing out, cut half the roots off and put in more soil. The previous soil has been totally broken down and disappeared (magically, or maybe internet magically!) by the tree. I can easily see the plants in the upflow wetland filter doing exactly the same, maybe even more so as there was never any 'soil' in the first place. I imagine if you don't have any large debris (the sub pump won't allow very large particles and is suspended below the surface and above the bottom) that the bog could indeed be 'clean' relative to visible organics. I imagine if the inflow is too fast for such breakdown to occur in a sort of equilibrium, I'd get matting and buildup. Doesn't mean I don't know there's organics but not the kind that would stop the flow of water. Maybe very minimal if I find the right balance of speed and volume.

JMHO

 

[Waterbug]

Soil breaks down and disappears? OK. I don't even want to get into how plants work. I can see there is no interest.

 

[brokensword]

This from the same person who told me I couldn't seal a concrete aquarium with cement powder, despite personal experience and years of non-leaking use. No wonder you can't get the gymnastics...but, let's not go there as I see there's no interest.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Actually soil (at least an ingredient) does breakdown and disappear.

"Soil is a mixture of minerals, organic matter, gases, liquids, and countless organisms
that together support life on Earth."
Wikipedia

Or the longer more detailed definition-

"Soil - Soil is a natural body comprised of solids (minerals and organic matter), liquid,
and gases that occurs on the land surface, occupies space, and is characterized by one or both of the following: horizons, or layers, that are distinguishable from the initial
material as a result of additions, losses, transfers, and transformations of energy and
matter or the ability to support rooted plants in a natural environment."
USDA

Anyone who has ever gardened to any real extent knows that soil does indeed "breakdown". This is why soil amendments such as peat and compost are periodically added.

 

[Waterbug]

Breakdown...reduce in volume, yes. Disappear? OK. Not really the forum to have such a discussion.

This reminds me of the concrete kills fish debate I had on GardenWeb 15-20 years ago. For 3 years I made the case for why concrete wasn't a deadly poison. I was called every name in the book by regulars. Luckily that forum allowed such debate and I think the hobby was improved since I hardly ever see people still trying to spread that myth. But for every myth dispelled there seems to be many more invented to take its place. This forum certainly would never allow such a debate on bogs. Dogma here says bogs are the greatest. So be it...here, but only here in this forum.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

This forum certainly would never allow such a debate on bogs. Dogma here says bogs are the greatest. So be it...here, but only here in this forum.

As I understand if that is exactly what this forum is here for.
I will repeat my earlier invitation. Start your own thread presenting your views on 'bogs'. I, for one, would enjoy a vigorous discussion on this subject.

 

[addy1]

My lilies are in kitty litter, when planted one tiny plant, lots of litter, when divided, almost no litter and solid roots. It does poof away. And I do not have a lot of litter in the pond, the gold fish don't muck around it like koi do.