I miss Waterbug...

[crsublette]

I've found this site to be useful for the latest methods and "custom" options. There are a few other sites but these dudes are serious and very helpful if you're serious too.

I'm really old...I've had trouble with PDF format changes in the past..nothing too serious but a pita. And you have to be careful about settings to make sure you really have all the content you want. So I stick to raw text (including BBCode) and downloading images. Easier for me to search with software. Plus the free PDF editors, at least used to, kind of suck. Paying Adobe $140 for something I don't need isn't appealing.

Very nice... Definitely will look into it. Thank ya!! :claphands:


Although, the Adobe PDF actually does save all the data in the file. Converts all the dynamic embedded referencing into static content.


Yeah, the PDFs can be a PITA though. There are times when page design elements do not align correctly and I have to fix it manually, which sucks.

 

[Waterbug]

Meh, been in the tech world thang far too much to care about reputation.

I used to think the same thing but a couple of events made be take another look. Things have changed. An actual paradigm shift imo. And things are moving extremely fast into this new reality. Data is tied extremely closely to individuals now. Internet is no longer that other separate thing you do...it's you. All of it. Forever. In the last 5-10 years we went from people not wanting to tell anyone their name or address to installing 24/7 streaming web cams in their bathrooms.

Actually, there was a fella that did just that!!! HTH Test Stripes for Pools, post#4 is an exact copy/paste of what I wrote in Advice On Digital PH Tester, post#4.

Meh, this is gonna happen no matter. It's all good as long as they don't insert a picture of a goat doing some "undesireable mischief" to what I wrote.

Yeah, look at this piece of crap. But I maintain some control. EHow is a pretty big company, owned by an even larger company, and at first they came up before my site in Google. But now they're second page as Google has gotten better at seeing crap. They can re-word my text but they can't steal my images without blatant law breaking. So there are ways to keep some control.

The concept that I could take the time to draw an image, post it on a site, and lose ownership, that I could be rightfully sued should I ever use that image again, is not something I'm interested in doing. 99% of the images I post in forums are references to my web site so I keep ownership. For me it's more of a freedom issue. To keep a freedom you have to exercise it.

Depends how much effort you applied and you goals of course. But say you spend 20, 40, 200 hours editing and putting everything together, something you're proud of and think will help the hobby. You post it on a site. Next day, next week, the site goes away. So you post on another site. You'll probably be getting a letter. These forums seem like fun and games on the surface, that's their purpose. They used to be managed by individuals. But behind the scene most are serious businesses today. And that trend is continuing fast. Just like magazines and newspapers were once the best way for a few people to manipulate public opinion, online content is proving to be much more powerful. Very effective, pretty cheap compared to TV.

It's already had a huge impact on US politics and it's just the beginning.

If they want my content they'll have to pry it from my cold dead hands. Probably be getting a letter from the NRA lawyers shortly.

 

[crsublette]

How does it feel like being famous? :claphands:


Yeah, I understand what ya mean, but I am never going to look into writing a book nor make a profit from any of my opinions in this hobby. It's a good point. I might just store it on some free joint like 100webspace or something; although, I imagine it is cheap as heck to reserve your own DNS nowadays or I think my ISP my actually provides something for free.

I am a big software and content open source community proponent and I take this approach with everything I do.

I actually had a run in with a person that copyrighted their material and took it offline, which I had it PDF archived prior to this transition. I still have it and use it, but now she has tagged me with a significant warning stating to never distribute it, which is a shame since it is very good information that all pond hobbiests should know. I asked if there was any compromise and there was none.

I think there is too much in this hobby where folk are trying to make a profit. Ugh, the big DIYer that invented the standard design of the pond upflow S&G filter... I can't remember his name now, but definitely could find it if I looked it up. Well, all his projects now are locked up in secrecy and I have yet to see any of them sold, except supposedly I have the impression that they are sold somewhere. So, we just get gossip from him whenever he shows up to do a job for someone. The guy is quite talented and it is a shame he does not want to improve the hobby more than what he is doing.

If this is a concern, then Inventors and writers need to get their crap together by getting it properly patented or copyrighted already and actually figureing out a distribution system if that is their concern.

I think there are Internet business services out there now that creates a proper distribution system while legally maintaining integrity of ownership

It's so aggravating when folk give honest hobbyiests' a hard time for just wanting to help others enjoy the hobby. Ugh, I dislike Aquascape so much for promoting this mentality.

 

[dieselplower]

Yeah man, I completely understand.

Meh, been in the tech world thang far too much to care about reputation. I know everything I post is publicly available for everyone to see and manipulate and for the future propserity of all time. So, meh, that's just the nature of the beast and is why I archive everything on my personal drive.

I'm just a simple farmer that does odd jobs here and there. If folk want to twist my content or take credit for it, then go ahead since it don't matter to me much. All I can control is what I can while I am here when I write.


Actually, there was a fella that did just that!!! HTH Test Stripes for Pools, post#4 is an exact copy/paste of what I wrote in Advice On Digital PH Tester, post#4.

Meh, this is gonna happen no matter. It's all good as long as they don't insert a picture of a goat doing some "undesireable mischief" to what I wrote.

Called him out hahaha

 

[Waterbug]

How does it feel like being famous? :claphands:

Like Bad Girls, Snooki puking famous? I can only hope.

Yeah, I understand what ya mean, but I am never going to look into writing a book nor make a profit from any of my opinions in this hobby.

Did a little thing about 4 years ago, didn't think anything of it. $200-300 check arrives every month, and I only get 20% of the take. That's when I got curious about what the heck is going on with the Internet. I knew people were making money but this was pretty easy. Of course plenty of projects go nowhere too. But still, worth considering. I keep options open.

It's a good point. I might just store it on some free joint like 100webspace or something; although, I imagine it is cheap as heck to reserve your own DNS nowadays or I think my ISP my actually provides something for free.

If by NDS you mean domain name, yeah, 99 cents for the first year is easy to get. For trying out new stuff I use NearlyFreeSpeech. It's bare bones which I like. Good basic support for PHP. I don't like complex every bell and whistle, changing every week hosting. It's pay as you go, 25 cents to put up a site. No hidden anything. They're anal about disclosure. No dancing bears, just hosting. So hosting your own site is $1.24 for the first year, plus some money for the bandwidth of people using your site. No visitors, no charge. You deposit what you want to spend and if the site goes crazy and your deposit is spent they just take down the site, so you don't get a $1,874,243 credit card bill. When a site does well I move it to a set fee hosting site, visitors never know the difference.

I maybe pay $20 a year for multiple incubator type sites, some years a lot less when I'm not screwing around with sites.

IMO the free sites are more hassle than they're worth, but I haven't used one in a long time. GeoCities, ask your grandparents. Advertising $$$ goes to them, so you provide the content and they earn the money. I'm a capitalist.

I actually had a run in with a person that copyrighted their material and took it offline, which I had it PDF archived prior to this transition. I still have it and use it, but now she has tagged me with a significant warning stating to never distribute it

I don't know what this "tag" thing is but that type of junk can follow you around for a long time. Years from now you could be applying for something and up pops that gem. Nobody is going to care whether it's valid or not because you're never going to talk to a person. Like the Honey Badger, computers don't give a crap.

which is a shame since it is very good information that all pond hobbiests should know. I asked if there was any compromise and there was none.

Just re-write it, hopefully with improvements. That's the way the world works. New work is almost always based on the work of others. Word for word copying is against the law. Plagiarism isn't cool. Easy enough to stay away from both. Good artists copy, great artists steal -Picasso

I think there is too much in this hobby where folk are trying to make a profit. Ugh, the big DIYer that invented the standard design of the pond upflow S&G filter... I can't remember his name now, but definitely could find it if I looked it up. Well, all his projects now are locked up in secrecy and I have yet to see any of them sold, except supposedly I have the impression that they are sold somewhere. So, we just get gossip from him whenever he shows up to do a job for someone. The guy is quite talented and it is a shame he does not want to improve the hobby more than what he is doing.

I don't see it. I designed, manufactured and sold pond vacuums for a couple of years. It was kind of popular, but building these types of things one at a time is a money loser. People doing it imo maybe cover costs. I assume they do it because they enjoy it, like I did. But after making a couple of hundred the fun wears off and it's time to move on. When I moved to Phoenix the concept of making these in a 115F shop was even less appealing.

I have a magic filter, basically a fabric filter that's cheap and easy to clean. Pretty sweet really, can even clear a green pond (depending on algae life cycle). Had it about 15 years now. Used to use it when I cleaned ponds. Could go from green to sparkling clean in 24 hours...guaranteed or no charge. Worked great, made OK money. Doing something one at a time is tough to make an actual living. It was fun for a while, but so are other things.

Thought about posting instructions for the filter but geez, read any pond forum and see how any innovation is treated. When people first suggested Trickle Towers worked they were brutalized and I don't mean that as hyperbole. They took months and months of crap. To see if it worked all people had to do was pile up some rocks, run water of it and measure ammonia...that's it. Would take an hour maybe. Instead people spent hours and hours writing one nasty post after another. After enough people did finally try it and opinion shifted these forum "experts" just changed their posts to like they supported it all along, even help invent it. I find it pretty disgusting.

Not really very attractive investing a lot of time to push any new concept (or even ones that have been around a long time but are unknown in a specific forum). Plus my fabric filter requires some building detail and effectiveness varies by water condition, so there would be plenty of ammo for haters to line up around the block to shoot their made up SOP forum logic crap at it. They live for that. I doubt seriously posting the instructions would do anything other than create yet another forum crap storm (any forum). Plus there are other filters today that probably do as good a job, so not much point.

On Koiphen I've mentioned my waterfall catch basin concept a few times and each time it's ridiculed. That's fine, have to expect that in any forum. I'm a low life Water Garden person coming into a Koi Pond, how dare I suggest a concept from a Water Garden. I'm sure not going to be staying up late at night to push the concept. What the crap do I care if someone wants to spend 2x for pumps and electric? Well gee, in the past couple months 2 new gunite Koi ponds are using the same concept and the forum experts think it's just the best idea ever. Forums.

It's not really bitterness, it's more that forums are not the proper place for new ideas. Yeah, it's possible, but talk about taking the hard route. I like the hobby, but not that much. And it often just plain doesn't work because the haters are extremely good at what they do. Have to respect them at their craft.

I think the best forum for new ideas is going directly to the market place. That worked way better for the Muck Mop. If you introduce any new concept to most forums it's going to upset the resident posters who want to keep the false mantle of expert. New people read that crap and don't try the system. But advertise directly to the customers, they buy it, try it, and they start posting in forums how great it works and the resident posters, because they live in their only tiny little world and never read anything else, don't have a clue what this system is and they have to play catch up to discredit it. If you can get enough actual users posting the experts don't stand a chance. Then they have to start promoting the system too because their game is to repeat whatever the most popular opinion is...just post it more often and before anyone else to be the expert. Forums are no big secret.

Why forum bots are the future imo. You don't need actual people to praise a product, if the bots are good. Then the resident posters fall into line and you're golden. The next step..bots as resident posters...try to take over the world - the Brain.

If this is a concern, then Inventors and writers need to get their crap together by getting it properly patented or copyrighted already and actually figureing out a distribution system if that is their concern.

No forms needed for copyright, nothing to file, no cost.

I didn't patent the Muck Mop or other things. Not worth the cost and effort. I think a lot of inventors get hung up on patents, I did at first. Screw patents. Some companies I work for sometimes do file patents in my name, not sure any were ever approved, but they have different reasons for patents. They trade them.

There are a few stories of inventors patenting something and doing well, but there's a butt load more of patents being a waste of time. If a product takes off there's time to patent it. Or if you're going to pitch a product to another company...apply for a patent first. Doesn't have to be granted to have protection.

Same with incorporating. I used to a lot, but it really doesn't help a small time dude like me. If a big company comes after me I'm not going to hire a legal team. I'm going to roll over, pull down my pants and hope they buy me dinner afterwards. If I have something worth while I normally sell / license it to a real company. They have the muscle and I don't mind getting a smaller cut. Bonus is I normally get to keep my pants on. Inventing stuff and running a company is two completely different jobs. I suck at running companies. I suck at patents. There are other ways. Create first.

I think there are Internet business services out there now that creates a proper distribution system while legally maintaining integrity of ownership

I don't know of any illegal ones. No reason to be illegal when billions of people are ready, willing and able to freely and happily hand over great content. Facebook doing almost $2B a quarter and 99.99999% of its content was provided for free. Facebook even tells people what they can and cannot provide. That is one great deal. Forums, Twitter...never in the history of the world has any business model come this close to getting free labor. Egyptian Pharaohs had higher labor costs.

It's so aggravating when folk give honest hobbyiests' a hard time for just wanting to help others enjoy the hobby. Ugh, I dislike Aquascape so much for promoting this mentality.

DIY is a tiny part of the total number of ponds. I don't believe Aquascape has really ever converted any DIY person, or potential DIY person, to their product. Pretty rare anyways. It's such a small market and it doesn't spend money.

I think it flows the other direction. More hobbyists because of Aquascape. They have the numbers, and some of those people are going to get more interested in ponds as a hobby. More moving to Koi Pond than Water Garden though, just like Water Gardens can be a gateway drug to Koi Ponds..

I think more ponds get filled in because of the crap info other hobbyists hand out...at least it seems that way to me because I've filled in more ponds than I've built and the reason is always the same. "You know, I tried barley straw and that didn't work. I tried peroxide...I tried....So now I'm done with this pond". On the other hand, people who follow Aquascape's format seem to keep their ponds a pretty long time. For the huge number of Aquascape owners there are they're forums are pretty quiet, not a lot of bitching. And I get the same impression when talking to Aquascape owners. They don't really think too much about their pond. Just a pretty landscape feature. I don't think many would become a hobbyist if their pond was taken away.

But I'm biased. I've built ponds in the past and I built basically the same pond over and over. Wasn't that much different from Aquascape. I tailored it to the people not fish. The reason I like ponds so much is for the wildlife in an urban environment. More birds, reptiles and other animals. So to me the more ponds the better. If they're not perfect for fish well bummer. World isn't a fair place and I didn't get to vote.

 

[crsublette]

IMO the free sites are more hassle than they're worth, but I haven't used one in a long time. GeoCities, ask your grandparents. Advertising $$$ goes to them, so you provide the content and they earn the money. I'm a capitalist.

GeoCities. Yeah, I stopped using them once they started doing advertising and I quit them a very long time ago. :bye2: Yeah, 100webspace only does an extremely small ad banner that is so small it is easily ignored, that stays at a static location at the top and does not float as ya scrolling. Although, it's just very basic without many of the bells and whistles.

Good artists copy, great artists steal -Picasso

Very nice.

I don't see it. I designed, manufactured and sold pond vacuums for a couple of years. It was kind of popular, but building these types of things one at a time is a money loser. People doing it imo maybe cover costs. I assume they do it because they enjoy it, like I did. But after making a couple of hundred the fun wears off and it's time to move on. When I moved to Phoenix the concept of making these in a 115F shop was even less appealing.

Well, I know of a few merchants over at koiphen are doing particulary well at it, especially one fella I know.

It's not really bitterness, it's more that forums are not the proper place for new ideas. Yeah, it's possible, but talk about taking the hard route. I like the hobby, but not that much. And it often just plain doesn't work because the haters are extremely good at what they do. Have to respect them at their craft.

Definitely have to have thick skin to do it in with any forum crowd. Everyone's a critic. :cheerful: More than anything I look at the author's reaction and responses rather than what the peons have to say about the product.

For me, one of the big disuasions for the E.R.I.C. system is the author's condescension. Reactions are like a picture in that it says a thousand words while saying very little and I look at these reactions to gauge on how I should judge what they are selling.

I think the best forum for new ideas is going directly to the market place. That worked way better for the Muck Mop. If you introduce any new concept to most forums it's going to upset the resident posters who want to keep the false mantle of expert. New people read that crap and don't try the system. But advertise directly to the customers, they buy it, try it, and they start posting in forums how great it works and the resident posters, because they live in their only tiny little world and never read anything else, don't have a clue what this system is and they have to play catch up to discredit it. If you can get enough actual users posting the experts don't stand a chance. Then they have to start promoting the system too because their game is to repeat whatever the most popular opinion is...just post it more often and before anyone else to be the expert. Forums are no big secret.

Due to increased customer pool.... This is why you likely get less negative reviews when going directly to market versus doing it on a forum.

Honestly, forums are there to be harsh critics. I think releasing the idea in a forum and expecting any different is just ignoring how the "forum scene" operates.


I don't think a product is immune from criticism when the product goes directly to market. Just check out the comments on Amazon and the actual businesses out in the world whom's job is to write negative reviews. Heck, worst of it all, try being a smart phone app developer.

DIY is a tiny part of the total number of ponds. I don't believe Aquascape has really ever converted any DIY person, or potential DIY person, to their product. Pretty rare anyways. It's such a small market and it doesn't spend money.

I think it flows the other direction. More hobbyists because of Aquascape. They have the numbers, and some of those people are going to get more interested in ponds as a hobby. More moving to Koi Pond than Water Garden though, just like Water Gardens can be a gateway drug to Koi Ponds..

I think more ponds get filled in because of the crap info other hobbyists hand out...at least it seems that way to me because I've filled in more ponds than I've built and the reason is always the same. "You know, I tried barley straw and that didn't work. I tried peroxide...I tried....So now I'm done with this pond". On the other hand, people who follow Aquascape's format seem to keep their ponds a pretty long time. For the huge number of Aquascape owners there are they're forums are pretty quiet, not a lot of bitching. And I get the same impression when talking to Aquascape owners. They don't really think too much about their pond. Just a pretty landscape feature. I don't think many would become a hobbyist if their pond was taken away.

But I'm biased. I've built ponds in the past and I built basically the same pond over and over. Wasn't that much different from Aquascape. I tailored it to the people not fish. The reason I like ponds so much is for the wildlife in an urban environment. More birds, reptiles and other animals. So to me the more ponds the better. If they're not perfect for fish well bummer. World isn't a fair place and I didn't get to vote.

I'm likely the exception to that generality.... I never heard of Aquascape until I started going to the pond store. I got big into pondless water features and then this got me spurred into the hobby. I suppose others were motivated through Aquascape. "Ponding" is actually quite foreign in my area. I really got interested once I found thepondforum and this forum after asking about heat displacement issues and "bad things in my water" concerns.

I think more ponds get filled in because of the crap info other hobbyists hand out...at least it seems that way to me because I've filled in more ponds than I've built and the reason is always the same. "You know, I tried barley straw and that didn't work. I tried peroxide...I tried....So now I'm done with this pond". On the other hand, people who follow Aquascape's format seem to keep their ponds a pretty long time. For the huge number of Aquascape owners there are they're forums are pretty quiet, not a lot of bitching. And I get the same impression when talking to Aquascape owners. They don't really think too much about their pond. Just a pretty landscape feature. I don't think many would become a hobbyist if their pond was taken away.

Did ya actually believe they properly "tried it all" ?? I think there are too many half measures. Often times, when folk are receiving advice, I often get the impression "they're" only going to go halfway, regardless of the advice given, and then, when it fails, "they" will turn around and say " I tried everything ". I know the polite thing should be to believe everyone is honest and to give all of them the benefit of the doubt... but meh... I maintain my skeptism

With Aquascape owners, since they know Aquascape installed it and know of Aquascapes excellent service department plus all the money they spent, I doubt most will say "yeah, I spent a few thousand and it turned out to be wasted money".

Aquascape's forum is incredibly tightly and strictly moderated. A quite knowledgeable koiphen contractor and koi seller (edited the name out, not going to name drop) actually got banned rather quick from their forum "once he stopped pushing the company line" and he was often in conversation with Aquascape to improve the business. This might be why their forum is quite quiet. Aquascape determines who are allowed to do the squealing. It's just smart business for them to operate their forum like this.

 

[Waterbug]

Well, I know of a few merchants over at koiphen are doing particulary well at it, especially one fella I know.

They look pretty skinny to me. I think it's great they're doing something they love, can't put a value on that and I can relate. "Well" is relative. Their business have kept going, that's impressive enough. You can pay Koiphen for special treatment, and they do get it.

Honestly, forums are there to be harsh critics. I think releasing the idea in a forum and expecting any different is just ignoring how the "forum scene" operates.

"Critic" is the rub to me. Not sure how you're using the term. Critiques and even criticism with some interest in learning, some understanding of the subject, to give some level constructive criticism even if low would be of great value. To me, most resident posters in many forums act only to protect the dogma they have spent so much time, over years, to create for themselves. If I had a break through in stem cell research I wouldn't present that in the Vatican forum. So yeah, not a good place for new ideas. I sometimes think I've found a forum that's the exception because discourse is pretty darn good. But the deeper I go the more it starts to look like the same old same old.

I don't think a product is immune from criticism when the product goes directly to market. Just check out the comments on Amazon and the actual businesses out in the world whom's job is to write negative reviews. Heck, worst of it all, try being a smart phone app developer.

Nothing wrong with informed criticism. Can't get enough.

Did ya actually believe they properly "tried it all" ?? I think there are too many half measures. Often times, when folk are receiving advice, I often get the impression "they're" only going to go halfway, regardless of the advice given, and then, when it fails, "they" will turn around and say " I tried everything ". I know the polite thing should be to believe everyone is honest and to give all of them the benefit of the doubt... but meh... I maintain my skeptism

True. But I'm talking about bat crazy crap. There's no "proper" application because it's completely made up junk. When someone says they try barley straw I sure don't ask if they applied it correctly.

With Aquascape owners, since they know Aquascape installed it and know of Aquascapes excellent service department plus all the money they spent, I doubt most will say "yeah, I spent a few thousand and it turned out to be wasted money".

The ones I talk with seemed happy. Their interaction with the pond was only to sit near it when having coffee maybe, but they seemed happy. Some people are really unhappy but they also don't follow Aquascape guidelines. Paying $500 a couple of times a year for cleaning seems OK before you actually have to start writing checks.

Aquascape's forum is incredibly tightly and strictly moderated. A quite knowledgeable koiphen contractor and koi seller (edited the name out, not going to name drop) actually got banned rather quick from their forum "once he stopped pushing the company line" and he was often in conversation with Aquascape to improve the business. This might be why their forum is quite quiet. Aquascape determines who are allowed to do the squealing. It's just smart business for them to operate their forum like this.

I assumed so. But I see problems posted too. They build a lot of ponds. I assume the word would get out if people were paying $10-25K and feeling ripped off. State Attorney Generals love going after companies that piss off people rich enough to donate to campaigns.

 

[crsublette]

They look pretty skinny to me. I think it's great they're doing something they love, can't put a value on that and I can relate. "Well" is relative. Their business have kept going, that's impressive enough. 1) You can pay Koiphen for special treatment, and they do get it.

2) "Critic" is the rub to me. Not sure how you're using the term. Critiques and even criticism with some interest in learning, some understanding of the subject, to give some level constructive criticism even if low would be of great value. To me, most resident posters in many forums act only to protect the dogma they have spent so much time, over years, to create for themselves. If I had a break through in stem cell research I wouldn't present that in the Vatican forum. So yeah, not a good place for new ideas. 3) I sometimes think I've found a forum that's the exception because discourse is pretty darn good. But the deeper I go the more it starts to look like the same old same old.

2) Nothing wrong with informed criticism. Can't get enough.

4) True. But I'm talking about bat crazy crap. There's no "proper" application because it's completely made up junk. When someone says they try barley straw I sure don't ask if they applied it correctly.

The ones I talk with seemed happy. Their interaction with the pond was only to sit near it when having coffee maybe, but they seemed happy. Some people are really unhappy but they also don't follow Aquascape guidelines. Paying $500 a couple of times a year for cleaning seems OK before you actually have to start writing checks.

I assumed so. But I see problems posted too. 5) They build a lot of ponds. I assume the word would get out if people were paying $10-25K and feeling ripped off. State Attorney Generals love going after companies that piss off people rich enough to donate to campaigns.

1) You can pay Koiphen for special treatment, and they do get it.


The only special treatment is allowed the privilege to advertise and to do further marketing on the forum., as far as I am aware from looking at the memberships, back when I chose to donate to the organization.

Even the guy selling the ERIC system in the states here has recently joined just a few months ago.

It is funny how folk think they can just come to a forum and start advertising their product without paying for the privilege of using the forum's medium, resources, and customer pool.



2) "Critic" is the rub to me. Not sure how you're using the term. Critiques and even criticism with some interest in learning, some understanding of the subject, to give some level constructive criticism even if low would be of great value.... Nothing wrong with informed criticism. Can't get enough.


"Critic" meant in the truest definition. Let me pull out the webster dictionary (oh boy!). 1. a person who expresses an unfavorable opinion of something. 2) a person who judges the merits of literary, artistic, or musical works, esp. one who does so professionally.

Honestly, forums are there to be harsh critics. I think releasing the idea in a forum and expecting any different is just ignoring how the "forum scene" operates.

The "harsh critic" I was referring to does refer to those who view these projects with dogmatic inclinations. I think releasing the idea in a free public forum and expecting any different is just ignoring how the free public "forum scene" operates in these environments.



3) I sometimes think I've found a forum that's the exception because discourse is pretty darn good. But the deeper I go the more it starts to look like the same old same old.


Actually, koiphen has been the only forum where I have seen the most "professionals", that is defined as folk who actually make a living from it, reside to share their thoughts. Now, this does not mean all of their criticism should be weighed equally or even to be viewed as fairly. I know there are some on koishack and koibito and a couple other forums, but Koiphen has been the only one that I have seen to take a concertted effort to be a place to bring the professionals together to market their services and provide advice. I wish Aquascape's forum would do this, but there are many strings attached since they have interests as well and do not want to hurt their own business.

Now, the professionals I do see leave Koiphen often leave because they are challenged by folk, whether the criticism is valid or not, and these professionals would often react in a manner that does not shine a good light on them self. Folk have to have thick skin when doing business on forums. Otherwise, there is Ebay.

The only time I have seen forums reach the level of true professionalism are the forums that require a paid premium for posters to contribute. Back in the day, when I would do some information system software design and programming consulting on a very small scale, there were a couple programming websites, that required a premium to be a post, I found these forums to be immensely more beneficial when compared to all of the other free forums, that is where visitors can come join and post whenever they want. Unfortunately, I have not found anything like this in the pond hobby.



4) True. But I'm talking about bat crazy crap. There's no "proper" application because it's completely made up junk. When someone says they try barley straw I sure don't ask if they applied it correctly.


Very true. Where would we be if we didn't have barley straw and the other crazy pond store crap products to referr to?

I was in particularly talking about the "proper" application of the more reasonable solutions.



5) They build a lot of ponds. I assume the word would get out if people were paying $10-25K and feeling ripped off. State Attorney Generals love going after companies that piss off people rich enough to donate to campaigns.


Quite likely does happen and we never know of it. If it were to happen, then Aquascape would quite likely show an instant seperation from these contractors, leaving the contractor with full liability and nothing officially on Aquascape.

If this was a concern of Aquascape, then Aquascape would require the licensed contractors to be BBB accredited, or some equivalent, to show good faith, which I do not see this happening.

 

[crsublette]

I am not for sure I would take Aquascape as an authority on much especially due to their extremely optimistic and dangerous view of rock bottom ponds.

Aquascape Pond Myths, 7th paragraph down.

Rocks and gravel offer a natural place for aerobic bacteria to colonize and set up housekeeping ... regardless of how many fish you have in it ... So contrary to the myth, having rocks and gravel on the bottom of your pond actually allows Mother Nature to clean up after herself.

If Aquascape can not be honest about "why" they build their ponds the way they do whenever things start to go wrong, then this persuades me to question their motives.

Pretty scary for the consumer and awesome for the contractors.



This reminds me of a conversation I had with a greenhouse buddy, that has an Aquascape pond.

Charles, "so, you enjoy your pond? having any problems with this filter design?"

Phil, "Nope. Everything has worked out quite fine and I don't even have to test the water much."

Next day, in the early morning right when the doors were unlocked. Charles is walking around admiring Phil's pond and his many many fish, which I know is incredibly overstocked after taken into consideration of everything. Then, I noticed there were 7 dead goldfish and the employee was coming around to "fish" them out and adds a few more much smaller gold fish. Heh, I just shook my head.

 

[crsublette]

Now, I can not entirely fault this on Aquascape since they do attempt to have some standards in keeping clean water, which there are minor contradictions in their other article.


Waterbug, it is like ya say. The pond's health is secondary, within reason, and mostly there as something pretty to look at regardless of the cost of future maintenance.

 

[crsublette]

I really do not like to dog pile on Aquascape, but it is aggravating when folk suggest that "quantity indicates quality", which is quite a shallow assessment of a product.

 

[dieselplower]

I still have no idea what this Aquascapes stuff is. Don't care. I use a few buckets of rocks and a UV and my pond is clear to the bottom. I call it Dieselscapes. I am interested in this moving media filter or whatever it is called. Have more reading to do.

 

[JohnHuff]

I really do not like to dog pile on Aquascape, but it is aggravating when folk suggest that "quantity indicates quality", which is quite a shallow assessment of a product.

I'd never heard of Aquascapes until today. Interesting concept. As I went through their website my thoughts went from "why on Earth would anyone buy an Aquascape pond when all these components are available separately from other companies" to "why don't companies like Tetra put together packages like Aquascape, make deals with contractors/retailers and sell them as a bundle?" And why do coyotes call you Charles?

 

[Waterbug]

1) You can pay Koiphen for special treatment, and they do get it.


The only special treatment is allowed the privilege to advertise and to do further marketing on the forum., as far as I am aware from looking at the memberships, back when I chose to donate to the organization.

Even the guy selling the ERIC system in the states here has recently joined just a few months ago.

It is funny how folk think they can just come to a forum and start advertising their product without paying for the privilege of using the forum's medium, resources, and customer pool.

You have to pay to put advertisements in your posts signature (at least last time I checked), which is what I was referring to. That also seems to imply you're free to promote your products in your posts. People seem hesitant to talk about or recommend competing products. I just had a post where an advertiser suggested a drop in liner that he sells to someone and I didn't post "EPDM is cheaper and easier" because that would probably be stepping in it. Besides, if the original poster didn't already know to compare liners they probably wouldn't have understood my post any ways. Politics of each forum all seem a little different.

The "harsh critic" I was referring to does refer to those who view these projects with dogmatic inclinations. I think releasing the idea in a free public forum and expecting any different is just ignoring how the free public "forum scene" operates in these environments.

I think we're on the same page. Hard to tell. I guess you're saying "free" (meaning open to all, not $$$) public forums will always have small minded people? True. I believe the purpose of forums is to give people a soap box that they don't have in real life because people don't listen to them in real life. Dudes in check out lines who want to explain to me all the troubles in the world...shut up and go find a forum.

Lady Gaga's Bad Romance video on YouTube has 1,521,267 comments. Something odd about that. Do they think people read all those? At 30 seconds per read, reading non-stop for 8 hours a day it would take 4.3 years. And of course at the end of the 4.3 years there would be a few million more to read. Maybe it's a new ring in Dante's Inferno.

I don't consider any online forum to be free (open)...by a long shot. Like you said about Aquascape's forum. I used to post in an anarchist forum which prided itself on being open, ya know, being anarchists and all. Nope. Super sensitive about a lot of stuff. Many discussion forums don't allow discussion of completing forums or limit that (including here, but not too bad). Most don't allow anything that would upset members too much because forums are all about numbers, not quality, which is also why bots are being used so much by forum owners. Posters and advertisers can't tell the difference so what the hay.

Actually, koiphen has been the only forum where I have seen the most "professionals", that is defined as folk who actually make a living from it, reside to share their thoughts.

Yes...that is curious isn't it. Having been in lots of pond forums for many years I can tell you that professionals do post, but not for long. I remember a Biologist post once to explain one point on algae...followed by a dozen posts like "Yeah, well I added barley straw and that killed my algae", "Yeah, well I added hydrogen peroxide and that killed my algae", "Yeah, well I have a filter made from Popsicle sticks...". The Biologist never returned. There's just very little room for any kind of thoughtful discussion.

Now, this does not mean all of their criticism should be weighed equally or even to be viewed as fairly. I know there are some on koishack and koibito and a couple other forums, but Koiphen has been the only one that I have seen to take a concertted effort to be a place to bring the professionals together to market their services and provide advice.

You've missed the wars. There have been lots of professionals pushed out of Koiphen and other Koi sites. Many Koi sites were originally created by people pushed out of other forums. Many just stayed out of forums completely.

Koiphen is great for the narrow type of pond they support...just like every forum has their own narrow definition of what a pond is.

I wish Aquascape's forum would do this, but there are many strings attached since they have interests as well and do not want to hurt their own business.

To me they're in the landscape business. Kind of even in their name.

Now, the professionals I do see leave Koiphen often leave because they are challenged by folk, whether the criticism is valid or not, and these professionals would often react in a manner that does not shine a good light on them self. Folk have to have thick skin when doing business on forums. Otherwise, there is Ebay.

I've seen some people who say they're professionals but who I couldn't tell if there was any truth to their claim. I get skeptical when people boast more than demonstrate. People like Dr Roddy Conrad, who still posts once in a great while, but went thru blistering crap for months to demonstrate how Trickle Towers performed...advanced the hobby a lot. How he put up with it I'll never know.

Doc Johnson fought the good fight for a long time on different forums, even tried his own forum which was pretty big at one time imo. Hard to believe that a practicing Vet, with a specialty in Koi, would be pushed out of forums. Free Vet advice isn't as important as having 100 members handing out crap advice. But that's the deal in forum after forum. Soap box for the masses. Whatever is said the most must be true.

The only time I have seen forums reach the level of true professionalism are the forums that require a paid premium for posters to contribute. Back in the day, when I would do some information system software design and programming consulting on a very small scale, there were a couple programming websites, that required a premium to be a post, I found these forums to be immensely more beneficial when compared to all of the other free forums, that is where visitors can come join and post whenever they want. Unfortunately, I have not found anything like this in the pond hobby.

You said it brother man.

Very true. Where would we be if we didn't have barley straw and the other crazy pond store crap products to referr to?

It is my poster child.

I was in particularly talking about the "proper" application of the more reasonable solutions.

I can't remember ever running into that case. Now mind you this could be just the type of person who would call me to fill in a pond. They're not DIYers. They're in between Aquascape and DIY. Had the pond built by who knows who, went into forums when the pond turned to crap, and started getting crap info. It's possible if say they wanted to clear a green pond that they may have seen a few posts about UV, but those would be surrounded by "I tried UV and it didn't work" and a bunch of other "sure fire fixes". I assume it's hard (impossible) for them to pick out UV as the one answer that would do the job for them. So it could be dismissed. And many do say have a non working UV, but very few forums that even will mention UV sure don't ever give hardly any install and operation tips because no one knows any better. Beyond of course the standard "you have to change the bulb". Unless they go to a Koiphen type forum, but they seem to prefer the Water Garden forums because that's what they have. To know you have to go to Koiphen type sites for serious help with a UV you first have to know to use a UV and that it should work. In Water Garden forums it seems like when a UV doesn't work for someone it's assumed to be just one more crap fix and is tossed onto the pile.

5) They build a lot of ponds. I assume the word would get out if people were paying $10-25K and feeling ripped off. State Attorney Generals love going after companies that piss off people rich enough to donate to campaigns.

Quite likely does happen and we never know of it. If it were to happen, then Aquascape would quite likely show an instant seperation from these contractors, leaving the contractor with full liability and nothing officially on Aquascape.

Definitely. But I think that's more likely a problem with the contractor. Not to say the contractor is bad. I'd guess a great pond builder would have a seriously hard time pushing Aquascape, focus is landscape not pond. There's always going to be unhappy people. I'm talking about a serious failure that caused like 50,60% of owners to be unhappy in the first 30-90 days. That's criminal type failure.

 

[Waterbug]

I am not for sure I would take Aquascape as an authority on much especially due to their extremely optimistic and dangerous view of rock bottom ponds.

Absolutely. Just another pond myth started by some business to sell stuff.

I'm not even going to mention "barley".