How Steep Can the Sides of the Pond Be?

[waynefrcan]

The old school pond building is all rock sides and bottom for a natural look above and below the water line. Now the best method for fish health is no rock below the water. I like to think there is a middle ground.

 

[minnowman]

Plant shelves are not absolutely necessary. If your plant pots are on movable stands it's easier to rearrange them as necessary to allow for growth.

 

[Lisaebetten]

The old school pond building is all rock sides and bottom for a natural look above and below the water line. Now the best method for fish health is no rock below the water. I like to think there is a middle ground.

Yes me to, I didn't use any gravel and have a bare liner on the very bottom. Even my shelves have super flat rocks called kewanee flats.

 

[sburtchin]

I can't picture this sorry. You are talking of putting clay and sand inside the liner? I am not familiar with this so I can't help there. I would put it all behind the liner if your concerned with the walls collapsing in. I have some bricks on the underside, behind my liner as a support, then covered them with carpet to protect the liner. I even used the skinny cinder blocks under the liner in one of my waterfall attempts with the carpet protection. You could also use carpet padding.

Sorry if I'm not understanding you, others will chime in.

Sorry, I should have included a sketch sooner, but I'm not so good with the graphic arts. Better at CAD. This figure is adapted from a CAD drawing that supports a 3D model of my pond. Please don't over analyze. If you see lines (or missing lines), curves or colors that don't make sense, then they probably have nothing to do with the point I'm trying to get across. Underlayment not shown. This is a draft.

NOTE: Click the figure to expand to full size (easier to read). Click again to reduce size.

 

[Lisaebetten]

I am a new ponder, but I think the soil behind the brick will give you trouble in the way of moving. I just dont know as I havent read about this kind of build before. There is a specific clay I have read of that goes into the pond but with nothing covering it.

There is a new thread of a completed turtle bog build, have you read that yet?

 

[dieselplower]

I don't get it. What is the fill between the liner and bricks for? Damage protection? With a proper liner, the bricks will not damage the liner. How would you even get the dirt in between there? One layer of brick at a time? No thanks. What I see happening is the dirt getting into the kind and making a huge mess. It will also settle and knock down the brick wall. Just don't...

 

[tbendl]

I guess I don't understand why you wouldn't put all of this underneath the liner. I would think that eventually all the fill will eventually slide to the bottom of the pond versus putting the retaining wall under the liner. I am an admitted novice but this seems the most difficult way to build. Maybe I'm missing something. I wish I could be more help though.

 

[Lisaebetten]

O.k. I re-read thread and the soil is for a buffer between the brick and liner to prevent the brick from puncturing the liner and give the turtles something to climb on to get out. Check out @Mmathis completed turtle bog for ideas on giving the turtles a sanctuary!

You can do what you want with your own pond and create to your needs and desire. You just want it done right so you don't have a problem in the future.

Another thing to keep in mind is that you will most likely be able to see everything below the water. Just make sure your o.k. will looking at a brick wall. It will cover with algae in time. I see my fish tunnel at the bottom and wish I would have designed it differently.

 

[Mmathis]

Hey there, I'm not 100% sure I understand what you are asking, so if this is way off base, I apologize!

I think you're saying that you want something inside the pond to stack rocks on in order to hide liner. And what it sounds like is that you want to stack bricks inside the pond, on top of the liner as a base for the rocks......

Since you're in the construction phase, I would recommend building a shelf into the ground, behind the liner. What I recently did (because of slippery, collapsing soil, & water-logged Clay....) was build a "collar" around the perimeter of the pond. If I can find those pics, I'll include them (but they were prior to iOS8, so prob. aren't on this iPad). I did this as a retrofit, but it would be a cinch to do during initial construction.

Anyway, I'm including these drawings. Top is what I think you want. Bottom is with a built-in shelf. And again, I apologize if this is not what you're talking about. I can't function on verbal descriptions, and need a visual reference.

 

[sburtchin]

The old school pond building is all rock sides and bottom for a natural look above and below the water line. Now the best method for fish health is no rock below the water. I like to think there is a middle ground.

I'm not too concerned below the water line, but if I see a fold (in the liner) then I know it's not natural no matter how much 'pond carpet' is growing there. Rocks don't fold very often.

I'd like a perfectly flat hard bottom. Easy to suck up the muck with a shop vac.

It looks like the Pond Stars are using some kind of fill material under the smaller stones. I think maybe crushed stone, but they really gloss over all those important details.

 

[sburtchin]

I don't get it. What is the fill between the liner and bricks for? Damage protection?

That was the intention.

With a proper liner, the bricks will not damage the liner

All my books say you got to have underlayment to protect from stones or tree roots that might be in the soil. Some even recommend another layer of protection on the inside of the liner. I'm new to this, so maybe this is more CYA (by the authors) than fact. Sounds like you're saying I can put bricks or other sharp-edged stones directly against the liner.

How would you even get the dirt in between there? One layer of brick at a time? No thanks.

Well, it's like building a retaining wall on land, 3 o 4 courses of whatever, then tamp in the dirt behind it, then more. But yea, a lot more tedious than stacking bricks or stones drectly against the liner.

What I see happening is the dirt getting into the kind and making a huge mess. It will also settle and knock down the brick wall. Just don't...

Well, that's my biggest concern. I know that retaining walls on land can be much steeper, but under water I don't know about. It will settle for sure, and I expect it would be more like a thick liquid pushing against the inside of the wall. With the wall sloped, it will push back too (against the mud), but not knowing the exact science behind it or testimony from someone who's done it before, your "Just don't..." advice may be the best of all. Certainly if that wall ever colapsed the resulting slurry of mud and bricks would take a tremendous effort to clean up.

Origionally I was thinking to have a mud bottom with some rocks to make it look totally natural. I was thinking about having 12" of soil over the liner to make room for turtles to dig. Then I realized that the sides would have to be really steep to get more than about 2' deep, so I thought to add retaining walls. Only the size and shape are certain at this time. Everything else is just ideas being tossed about.

 

[sburtchin]

I think you're saying that you want something inside the pond to stack rocks on in order to hide liner. And what it sounds like is that you want to stack bricks inside the pond, on top of the liner as a base for the rocks......

Pretty close. I will stack rocks on top of the bricks so no bricks are above the water line. The bricks or whatever (undecided) inside the pond are a retaining wall to keep the sides of the pond from colapsing inward. My property and all the land for miles around was formerly a swamp. It is waterlogged (clay & silt) about 5 months a year. I don't trust it to hold it's shape with just the pond water pushing against it. I think there will have to be a retaining wall somewhere, either inside or outside the liner.

For sure I want some kind of stone material covering the liner because there will certainly be another big dog sometime in the future that will want to jump in and claw his way out.

Since you're in the construction phase, I would recommend building a shelf into the ground, behind the liner. What I recently did (because of slippery, collapsing soil, & water-logged Clay....) was build a "collar" around the perimeter of the pond. If I can find those pics, I'll include them (but they were prior to iOS8, so prob. aren't on this iPad). I did this as a retrofit, but it would be a cinch to do during initial construction.

A "collar" is part of my plan too for the same reasons. I called it a "rim" in my diagram.

 

[sburtchin]

If I was to do another pond I would rock the sidewalls with one plant shelf and have the bottom layers mortared or foamed in place and have it 3 -4 ft deep to avoid the herons. It's not a natural look but is less work to maintain. I then would do just clusters of rock on the bottom for some show and hiding spots for the fish.

Mortor would be great for stability. The walls could be almost vertical. Is that safe for the water chemistry given that portland cement is a limestone product?

Is the +4' depth for the herons, or to keep the water cool, or because the koi just need to live at that depth? I don't think I have herons.

 

[Lisaebetten]

Check out Waterbug on this site and his past posts about using mortar. Here is his web site also. I have read and re-read all his stuff before I made my pond and got lots of good advise. I would have mortared my rocks but I was to scared, being a newbie I didn't want to trash my liner.

www.waterbugdesign.com

 

[sburtchin]

Check out Waterbug on this site and his past posts about using mortar. Here is his web site also. I have read and re-read all his stuff before I made my pond and got lots of good advise. I would have mortared my rocks but I was to scared, being a newbie I didn't want to trash my liner.

www.waterbugdesign.com

Awesome link!!! Scale that back by 95% and I see some similarities to my plans. Also, the (broken) link from there to Bonnie Hill's website is pretty awesome too. Here it is:

http://www.bonniehill.net/ponds/index.html