Holding tank

[sissy]

I guess me being raised on an organic farm when organic was not known about keeps me keeping things simple for me .I grew up with a pond my dad and I built and no fancy stuff .Just a filter with lava rock and guessing the pump was not energy efficient and it did not matter and not even sure what the liner was ,probably rubber roofing .We had fish no clue what they were and we got snapping turtles from the raritan canal in NJ but that was ok also .I just know it worked and used my dads same set up except my pond is only a few feet from my septic tank and that gives off heat .I feel if you over think everything and over spend and fail then why not save and keep it simple and succeed .I guess it was how I was brought up .There may be fact in that but how can koi survive in abandoned ponds for years and lived .No filters no air no nothing .I have seen it when realtors call me to take them out so they can sell foreclosed properties .Smelly ponds are not good for resale .I guess it all depends on if the ground is insulated by a layer of snow also .Never understood that either but know it can be true after visiting our house in PA while growing up .House with no heat and snow every where and house was warmer inside than outside( not much warmer but warmer ) .House was old with no insulation at all .

 

[sissy]

Life always gets in the way and sorry for the things that have happened .I know when I moved here with no furniture (gave it all away cheaper than moving it ) mom got sick and passed away and then dad got sick and passed away and I was the caregiver because my sisters worked and did as much as they could .It is hard and never easy to go through but we manage and we are stronger for it .My dad always said don't let life get you down smile and learn to live your life .

 

[carolinaguy]

I wasn’t questioning why you haven’t finished. I was questioning why you won’t even show in progress photos. Thats what construction threads are for. Or how about your previous ponds? Surely you have photos of those?

One picture is worth a thousand words, right?

Again we are all different. I like to be known for keeping my promises. There will be everything you asked for after I’ve kept my promise to my wife.

 

[Mucky_Waters]

I’m a fat old balled headed 71 year old white guy who was not raised in this politically correct world. I also do not suffer foolish counterfactual thought. If dialogue, firm science based discussion is not tolerated on this website, then that’s fine. Arguing that 32.0 degree water supports vertebrate life defies the fundamental fact that water becomes a crystalline solid, not considering dissolved salts, with sharp cutting edges that penetrate tissue and kills cells. It also defies logic that if 32.0 degree water is dangerous it would be wise to plan a cushion of 2 degrees in a recommendation to novices who just don’t know about koi husbandry. To state that there is a system of thermometers at various depths installed and that supports expertise is just silly talk. Then there is the whole discussion that a 7 foot deep pond can maintain a thermocline and keep warmer water deep. 39 degrees is the heaviest water. Shallower ponds will not support a thermocline: however there is the whole concept of a frost layer in construction below which the ground will not freeze. That’s why building codes require foundations to be build below the local frost line. That means that a 4 foot deep pond in South Carolina extends three feet below freezing and the surrounding soil serves as a heat sink heating the water through the liner to above freezing during the winter, so again, no ice crystals. That’s just hard science that doesn’t require a study. Why do you think the food industry uses flash freezing to preserve food? If you take the heat out fast enough, the sharp crystals don’t form and cut the cells. Ever see the growth of a snow flake in slow motion? Every one of those ice blades is as sharp as a scalpel and will penetrate flesh. Why would anyone with an educated mind ignore hard scientific fact and recommend an idea that on its face defies hard science? Sorry but I’ve lost too many fish when I have ignored the science and I don’t want that to happen to others because of something I have said. 34 degrees is safe, and if the pond will go lower, then add heat in some way to keep the fish safe. It’s easy to do and you won’t have regrets.

There is no doubt that if you freeze a fish it will die, but koi and goldfish generally die from lack of oxygen in deeply frozen ponds long before they die from freezing.
By the way, you challenged us (or maybe it was just Mitch) to "Google koi temperature range" so I did and I provided a quote from one of the first links that I found that contradicted what you were saying. So to infer that all you have to do is "google" something to provide definitive proof on something doesn't quite work the way you might think.
You have my condolences on all your family health problem, I hope you are able to overcome them and find the time to finish your pond and or post some progress pictures.

 

[sissy]

That is why I always wonder why just keeping a hole in the ice for gas exchange helps oxygen depletion in any way .I always keep at least one airline under my heater going and one in each filter going .I know that fish slow down in the winter for fish but we all need oxygen to live .Plus my weather here is so weird 1 day it can be 30 degrees and the next day it can be 50 to 70 degrees .

 

[Lisak1]

Again we are all different. I like to be known for keeping my promises. There will be everything you asked for after I’ve kept my promise to my wife.

You don’t have to promise me anything. It’s just curious to me that someone with the experience and knowledge you claim isn’t willing to show instead of just telling.

 

[carolinaguy]

There is no doubt that if you freeze a fish it will die, but koi and goldfish generally die from lack of oxygen in deeply frozen ponds long before they die from freezing.
By the way, you challenged us (or maybe it was just Mitch) to "Google koi temperature range" so I did and I provided a quote from one of the first links that I found that contradicted what you were saying. So to infer that all you have to do is "google" something to provide definitive proof on something doesn't quite work the way you might think.
You have my condolences on all your family health problem, I hope you are able to overcome them and find the time to finish your pond and or post some progress pictures.

No one will argue the issue of freezing versus oxygen deprivation killing fish. Opening a hole is important. Draining a small amount of water from the pond after a freeze over is a good idea because it exposes the entire surface to air and reestablishes the entire interface by creating a gap between the ice and the water surface. We don’t live in a place with this problem so I bow to those with hard experience. If we did I would place an air pump in my house and run an insulated line to the pond to pump warmer air into the space to circulate air under the cap and maybe provide some warmth. Is it freezing or oxygen deprivation that kills them. No one can really know which is the primary culprit because a scarred gill will deprive oxygen too. At the end of the discussion, lots of oxygen and safe temperature should be the goal.

 

[sissy]

But can't the ice layer cave in if slightly weak and kill fish .I had a pump that pulled water from the pond I did not notice it until the top ice layer started to sink down .Scared the begeebers out of me .I could have lost my fish either to low water or the ice caving in farther .We could here the ice layer making noises as it sunk farther and farther and started to crack in spots

 

[carolinaguy]

But can't the ice layer cave in if slightly weak and kill fish .I had a pump that pulled water from the pond I did not notice it until the top ice layer started to sink down .Scared the begeebers out of me .I could have lost my fish either to low water or the ice caving in farther .We could here the ice layer making noises as it sunk farther and farther and started to crack in spots

No argument there. Again I’m not experienced in this area but assume that it would be good to open a hole and use a bubbler until the ice is thick enough to support its own weight. The northern members can provide more info based on experience. The KHA pond construction guidance says the air gap under the ice is a good idea and it makes sense since the pond surface is the primary gas exchange vehicle simply based on surface area. The ice itself is and excellent insulator as is snow on top of the ice.

 

[sissy]

could not do that as when I caught this there was only over a foot of water in the bottom of the pond and the liner had bubbled in on all sides .I am from NJ so I know growing up from my dads pond that he kept the pump running all winter but disconnected the hose from the filter .He kept very good notes even back then and I have them all to this day and built my pond with his directions from his lava rock filter .This was back in the 60's when this stuff was not done by homeowners that I knew of ,surely no aerators back then that I knew of .His notes are very detailed with hand drawings .My mom was not a picture taker

 

[Lisak1]

So maybe you would “bow” to someone like, say @MitchM who keeps a pond in one of the colder parts of this planet?

Your idea to pump warm air under the ice cap - to accomplish what? Melt the ice? Warm the air between the water and the ice? To what end?

 

[sissy]

how would you pump warm air under there .I know an aerator does not have a heat setting .I saw on youtube where some people who have money do heated ponds for the long winter .I saw it on ultimate log houses also .

 

[Mmathis]

how would you pump warm air under there .I know an aerator does not have a heat setting .I saw on youtube where some people who have money do heated ponds for the long winter .I saw it on ultimate log houses also .

I saw something on another forum once, where they had a boiler system. The water inside was heated to a specific temperature, and as water was piped through the tubing, it was heated — not a lot, but enough to keep the water “comfortable.” This was when I was still new to this, and it never made sense to me.....the WHY. I guess it would be useful for large public aquariums, as such, but this was just some guys backyard pond. Who defines what is “comfortable,” since koi and GF are cold-water fish, but whatever.....

 

[MitchM]

As much as I would like to get into the futility of heating an outdoor pond or address other misconceptions posted here, this is a thread about a holding tank, not winter issues.

However, for those that are still confused about whether fish die from either temperature or poor water conditions during periods of ice cover, watch this video for a little food for thought:
(hint: they're not dying from freezing temperatures)
I believe the subject fish is a member of the Cyprinidae family.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=969305923154425

 

[sissy]

gosh seems cruel to me .