Hello to All and HELP!

[AlaPAMa]

Plus the things that do work are really very boring and take a fair amount of effort compared to buying a some barley straw, tossing it into a pond and waiting 6-8 weeks.

I like boring..... two springs ago (my first with this pond), I used barley straw in a floating ball then the neighbor's dog thought it was a toy and broke it open. I just left the barley floating, I didn't see any noticeable clarity. I have also used barley pellets to no success.

 

[capewind]

No test kit. Where would I find one?

I didnt look for the cheapest priced one, just went to ebay to give you a visual ...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/API-Freshwa...838?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c306f971e

To start with, you need to test for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and PH ... once you are more comfortable, KH and GH need to be addressed as well, but dont want to overwhelm you. The KH and GH are important too, but sooo many dont test these at all, no harm to delay just a bit and give you some time to absorb the other info first.

Population count is difficult at this stage as the weather is still cool and they aren't coming up often.

Every item in your pond adds to your own little ecosystem. Like in nature, if there is too much, or too little of something, it will go out of balance, and something wont thrive because of it. We dont need an exact fish count, but the quanity of fish you keep, as well as all those tadpoles, add to the load on the environment. Your filter (and as you already know, there are many types) will help you keep the balance with higher populations. So if you tell us you intend to keep all existing creatures (which is fine), or say you want even more, then we know which way to advise may work the best for your situation.

We are now seeing something that looks like aquarium guppies also.

Could be, or could be BABY fish ... which those tadpoles/frogs will help reduce the numbers ...

Goals are to have clear water and a relatively care free pond.

Both can be done. Relatively care free is however a subjective term. It IS possible to have a pond that needs almost no work, I am doubting you are going to totally get out of doing anything at all between pond size and population. Little work to me rules out a bog filter. They are a fair amount of work to set up, and plant, and later, plants need pruning, etc ... So think you will be looking at a combo mechanical/biological filter ... which brings me to the next question ... are you handy? With help, do you feel up to building a filter yourself, or would you prefer to go to a store and buy one?

Again, I took your pond size, and calculated with all of it being two feel deep, even though you had said it was two feet at the deepest area ... that got you to 1800 gallons ... if most of it is more shallow, you are likely closer to or under 1500 gallons ... a 700 gph pump isnt going to cut it ... or at least not in my opinion. General rule of thumb is you want to cycle your pond volume at least once hourly ... so if we said your pond was 1500 gallons, you would want a pump pushing around 1500 gph ... other views are different .. some say to cycle the water volume 1.5x per hour, and my husband would say at least twice per hour, especially if you have fish .... It's taking your current pump about two hours to cycle the pond, and there is no filter as of yet ... Your plants are going to help, but you still need something that can pick up smaller debris, and give good bacterias a home (can address the good bacterias later, but in short simple terms, they too eat a lot of your fish wastes and other nasties in the water).

A nice little pump that another group member turned me onto is this one ... good volume, and short money .. just bought a second one a couple days ago ... I did buy the 2 yr warranty on the second pump. It was $20 more.

http://www.harborfreight.com/submersible-waterfall-pump-68418.html

 

[AlaPAMa]

A nice little pump that another group member turned me onto is this one ... good volume, and short money .. just bought a second one a couple days ago ... I did buy the 2 yr warranty on the second pump. It was $20 more.

http://www.harborfreight.com/submersible-waterfall-pump-68418.html


That's great. Thanks!

So think you will be looking at a combo mechanical/biological filter ... which brings me to the next question ... are you handy? With help, do you feel up to building a filter yourself, or would you prefer to go to a store and buy one?

My husband nor I are very handy, however we do have access to a couple of handy neighbors; one is a carpenter, the other a welder. Depending on the complexity, we may be able to make our own. But most likely will have to buy one. :dunno:

 

[AlaPAMa]

However, given the age of your pond, the amount of life, I'm guessing your "clear" problem isn't green water algae. I'm guessing a combination of things mainly related to decomposing organics, possibly some tannins and maybe a little bit of suspended algae. If you look really close can you see lots of ground pepper size bits of suspended stuff? Can you see the bottom? How deep? Submerge something white. How deep before you can't see it? Before it disappears what color does it become. Pretty much impossible to diagnose over the net.

I did the white stick test. The stick is only visible 4 inches down. Here are a couple more photos of my "color".




All the black squiggly, viney looking stuff is tadpoles, aka: fishfood :goldfish:

 

[AlaPAMa]

However, given the age of your pond, the amount of life, I'm guessing your "clear" problem isn't green water algae. I'm guessing a combination of things mainly related to decomposing organics, possibly some tannins and maybe a little bit of suspended algae. If you look really close can you see lots of ground pepper size bits of suspended stuff? Can you see the bottom? How deep? Submerge something white. How deep before you can't see it? Before it disappears what color does it become. Pretty much impossible to diagnose over the net.

I did the white stick test. The stick is only visible 4 inches down. Here are a couple more photos of my "color".




All the black squiggly, viney looking stuff is tadpoles, aka: fishfood :goldfish:

 

[capewind]

I havent read ALL of the other posts word for word, so dont know if this has been asked yet ... looking at the color of your water, are you getting any run off from the yard??? It looks like your liner may be laying flush with grade to allow run off in ... You want your liner to be at least a little above grade, whether you cheat it with dirt or rocks, doesnt matter, but that could be part of your problem too ... also, you could have a fair amount of sludge between the rocks that are in the pond itself ... a good filter is going to get a lot of what is IN the pond, but if there is runoff too, that will make the process ongoing... the color of the water could be decomposing plant matter and muck too from simply not having a filter ... in any regard, you do need some form of a filter, but just caught how the edges of the pond liner meet grade ...

Go to the DIY construction section to see if you, or the friends, could build something for you ... or if you'll definately need to purchase, and if a purchase, everyone can tell you what is working for them ...

 

[AlaPAMa]

We purchased a house 2 years ago that included a 1500-2000 gallon goldfish pond in the front yard. The pond was unattended for over a year in Central Virginia. It wasn't gross or grown up, just not clear water. I have never owned a pond before and had NO idea where to start. Last spring I had it drained & cleaned, at which time I learned that there were around 2 dozen Comet?Fish plus some guppies and a LOT of frogs. By summer it will be 3/4 covered with plants; 2 water lilies a large corkscrew rush, an invasive mint plant, a small arrow Arum, a bog iris & 3 Hibiscus Coccinineus. The pond guy told me that it would never be clear because it got too much full sun in the hottest part of summer?

ANYWAY, my pond is not clear and I want it to be. After two years of research online (no sun/too much sun, UV Bio filter pump/trickle tower, Barley pellets/Barley Ball that the neighborhood dog thought was his toy, DefensePac, etc...), I think my HEAD WILL EXPLODE! I don't believe that brain matter is conducive to clear pond water. Although the fish might like it.[/size]
Currently there is a 3 inch wide black film surrounding the pond edge......oh wait, it's moving.......zillions of tadpoles![/size]

Can anyone on this site help me clear up this matter (pun intended [/size]

)[/size]

Thanks![/size]

 

[AlaPAMa]

We purchased a house 2 years ago that included a 1500-2000 gallon goldfish pond in the front yard. The pond was unattended for over a year in Central Virginia. It wasn't gross or grown up, just not clear water. I have never owned a pond before and had NO idea where to start. Last spring I had it drained & cleaned, at which time I learned that there were around 2 dozen Comet?Fish plus some guppies and a LOT of frogs. By summer it will be 3/4 covered with plants; 2 water lilies a large corkscrew rush, an invasive mint plant, a small arrow Arum, a bog iris & 3 Hibiscus Coccinineus. The pond guy told me that it would never be clear because it got too much full sun in the hottest part of summer?

ANYWAY, my pond is not clear and I want it to be. After two years of research online (no sun/too much sun, UV Bio filter pump/trickle tower, Barley pellets/Barley Ball that the neighborhood dog thought was his toy, DefensePac, etc...), I think my HEAD WILL EXPLODE! I don't believe that brain matter is conducive to clear pond water. Although the fish might like it.[/size]
Currently there is a 3 inch wide black film surrounding the pond edge......oh wait, it's moving.......zillions of tadpoles![/size]

Can anyone on this site help me clear up this matter (pun intended [/size]

)[/size]

Thanks![/size]

Sorry about the repeat and repeat, I was just attempting to change the water volume of pond from typo in original post.
Yes, I do believe that the quantity is between 1500 & 2000 Gallons. Not the 3500-4000 originally posted.

 

[capewind]

It is what it is, but accurate volume makes a difference for treating a pond, or a planning filter system. All I did was run the dimensions you gave through a pond calculator, knowing I used your max depth as THE depth. Even the (garbage) water clear treatments you can buy, if you are way off on your volume, you could accidently kill everything living in the pond. If you want to give accurate measurements, I can run the numbers again to get you closer.

 

[AlaPAMa]

Welcome to the Forum

Dr. Case, How do I delete mistakes I made in double or triple posting? I can't seem to find a "delete" button.

 

[AlaPAMa]

It is what it is, but accurate volume makes a difference for treating a pond, or a planning filter system. All I did was run the dimensions you gave through a pond calculator, knowing I used your max depth as THE depth. Even the (garbage) water clear treatments you can buy, if you are way off on your volume, you could accidently kill everything living in the pond. If you want to give accurate measurements, I can run the numbers again to get you closer.

No thanks, I did have the accurate volume @1765, but in my very first post I inadvertently typed 3500-4000 instead of 1500-2000 (fat finger syndrome) and didn't realize the error until later. THEN I attempted to correct it and ended up re-posting it 3 times!

 

[Waterbug]

OK, I see. That is pretty bad. Clear is a relative term and so I never know where people are on the spectrum.

Scum algae (slime algae)
I didn't see the "white" in the test. But I think I'm seeing a "rough" surface in some pictures which looks like a scum type macroalgae. Green water algae is more of single cell suspended thru out the water column type deal. The scum type kind of float in more of a mat, but it breaks up into dust if you touch, and sometimes your hand gets coated with a green slime when you pull it out. Does this sound right?

I've mostly seen scum type algae in the spring and it normally doesn't last long. Skimmers remove it nicely and so those ponds never see it.

Soup
My own term for this type of water is "soup". To me it looks like soup. And also because there are many components, algae, dead organic stuff and bacteria. The good news it will be fairly easy to make a big improvement.

The honeymoon is over.
The heart of the problem is organic waste. Every pond has a honeymoon period. When first installed most ponds will turn green and then after 6-12 weeks many turn clear. That's when people put barley into the pond, or magnets, of chemicals, or crazy filters. All of these "cures" are suppose to take 6-12 weeks to work. Surprise, surprise. Pond clears and gizmo (along with the clever pond keeper) gets full credit.

But that's just the honeymoon weekend. The rest of the honeymoon period normally lasts 4-6 years, but 2-12 is possible. During this time stuff grows and dies. Dead stuff piles up. By pile up I mean in the water, not just on the bottom. Cleaning a pond once a year only extends the honeymoon period. During this period a pond keeper gets confirmation that their barley, filter or whatever really does work great because everything "looks" great.

As organic stuff decomposes is breaks into smaller and smaller bits. Seeing ground pepper size suspended matter is bits of decompose stuff, algae, plants, dead fish, frog spawn. But those bits continue to decompose into smaller bit that are called DOCs which just means really small, like bacteria small. At this size they start to do something new, they act as a soap and you see white foam on the surface. The foam can come from a waterfall or even from bubbles of escaping gases.

So there comes a time when decomposing organic waste reaches a tipping point and it can be very sudden. In one of my first backyard ponds the tipping point came 5 years in when big chunk of decomposed leaves broke off the bottom and floated on the surface for a while. Pretty gross.

4 choices
You pond has reached that tipping point. The honeymoon is now over. You really have 4 basic choices.

1. Accept the pond as it is. It will change and may improve some. Many people do go this route, I call these Wildlife Ponds. In these the fish aren't fed and you just take what nature provides. Can be good, can be bad, but it's always interesting to these type of owners.

2. Remove everything in the pond down to the liner. Replace all the rock with new rock. Basically start over. It resets the honeymoon clock.

3. Fill in the pond. Many, many people do this. Like you, unable to find good info and having been told dozens of myths they just get fed up.

4. Get really skeptical. You can improve your pond know how by a factor of 100 by doing one thing, not believing a single thing you've ever heard about ponds. There is good info, but this is a numbers thing. If you currently know a 100 things about ponds and 99 are myths and 1 is right you're better off disbelieving all 100. Because currently you have no way to pick out that single nugget.

Becoming skeptical is key. Without that there will be an endless flow of myths and crank ideas. Being skeptical means you ask people who offer suggestions to explain why and how it works. Most common response, and a little defensive, "well I use it and my pond is perfectly clean". To sway you they will hype how clean it is saying crazy stuff like "cleaner than my drinking water". It becomes obvious, when you probe even a little, that they're only repeating something they've heard and really have no idea what's going on.

Need more info
Sorry if you already posted this stuff:
Can you post some wide shots of your pond?
Do have a skimmer? I assume not.
No filters of any kind right?
Size of your pump(s)?
Waterfall or stream? I assume not.

Then I can post some pretty easy improvements along with references to how these were tested and expected results.

 

[AlaPAMa]

Soup
My own term for this type of water is "soup". To me it looks like soup. And also because there are many components, algae, dead organic stuff and bacteria. The good news it will be fairly easy to make a big improvement.


1. Accept the pond as it is. It will change and may improve some. Many people do go this route, I call these Wildlife Ponds. In these the fish aren't fed and you just take what nature provides. Can be good, can be bad, but it's always interesting to these type of owners.

2. Remove everything in the pond down to the liner. Replace all the rock with new rock. Basically start over. It resets the honeymoon clock.

3. Fill in the pond. Many, many people do this. Like you, unable to find good info and having been told dozens of myths they just get fed up.

4. Get really skeptical. You can improve your pond know how by a factor of 100 by doing one thing, not believing a single thing you've ever heard about ponds. There is good info, but this is a numbers thing. If you currently know a 100 things about ponds and 99 are myths and 1 is right you're better off disbelieving all 100. Because currently you have no way to pick out that single nugget.

Becoming skeptical is key. Without that there will be an endless flow of myths and crank ideas. Being skeptical means you ask people who offer suggestions to explain why and how it works. Most common response, and a little defensive, "well I use it and my pond is perfectly clean". To sway you they will hype how clean it is saying crazy stuff like "cleaner than my drinking water". It becomes obvious, when you probe even a little, that they're only repeating something they've heard and really have no idea what's going on.

Need more info
Sorry if you already posted this stuff:
Can you post some wide shots of your pond?
Do have a skimmer? I assume not.
No filters of any kind right?
Size of your pump(s)?
Waterfall or stream? I assume not.

Then I can post some pretty easy improvements along with references to how these were tested and expected results.


Yep, I've got soup...
No skimmer, apparently No filter and the 1 pump is 700gph w/UV Light, No waterfall nor stream either.
If a new pump & filter and building up the sides to lower run off from the surrounds doesn't clear it up, then well just go the Wildlife Pond route. It seems to have worked well thus far, as long as I don't want clear water AND we LOVE it so Backfilling is out of the question.
I'm VERY Skeptical, that's why I joined your forum

I'll post a couple of wide shots for you shortly......
Thanks to you and everyone who is helping to educate me! Several have posted that I came to the right place, and indeed it appears I have.

 

[AlaPAMa]

I'll post a couple of wide shots for you shortly......
Thanks to you and everyone who is helping to educate me! Several have posted that I came to the right place, and indeed it appears I have.

 

[AlaPAMa]

Can you post some wide shots of your pond?

ok, here they are!
The pond is on the West side of the house in a vertical W/E position.
Toward the West:
View attachment 53766

Toward the North:
View attachment 53769View attachment 53770

Toward the East:
View attachment 53772

Toward the South:
View attachment 53773