Hamstermann's pond build

[hamstermann]

Shelves are carved!! It's starting to get closer to time to put the geotextile and liner in! I just need to finish leveling the pond floor and sloping the bog floor toward the trench for the centipede.

Exciting stuff! It's so nice after 6 months of off-and-on again digging!

 

[GBBUDD]

are you doing a bottom drain ? if so level bottom is not optimum but a bowl shape is so debris falls to the drain

 

[hamstermann]

are you doing a bottom drain ? if so level bottom is not optimum but a bowl shape is so debris falls to the drain

Nope, no bottom drain.

I need the flat bottom in the pond part so I can stack the retaining wall block.

 

[GBBUDD]

better off with a trench, that way the wall is held in place at the bottom your stone footing is entrenched and wont fall apart

 

[j.w]

Looking good @hamstermann
I see it all coming together!

 

[GBBUDD]

I've been spoiled over the years I know too well how fast and efficient and excavator can be but in the same breath. I have had my fair share of time in the seat.
Not a big fan of the almighty shovel here in New England way to many rocks of all sizes. And just to dig out a basket ball sized boulder could take over an hour.
So when I see you folks in south working with clay and no rock I get jealous and tip my hat to you as hand digging that kinda hole here is a herculean task.

But honestly @hamstermann just like putting a centipede into a bog trench. It will work that much easier for you in the long run digging a trench like 8 inches deep where you want retaining walls so you can place 6 inches of 3/4 stone down as a base for the wall to sit on. Then when your done you'll have 2 inches of rock locking the wall in place. Sand would be another option but you'll want to make sure it's protected and can't be stored up thus underminning the wall.
I take your thinking placing the wall on the flat bottom and a layer or two of fabric??

 

[hamstermann]

But honestly @hamstermann just like putting a centipede into a bog trench. It will work that much easier for you in the long run digging a trench like 8 inches deep where you want retaining walls so you can place 6 inches of 3/4 stone down as a base for the wall to sit on. Then when your done you'll have 2 inches of rock locking the wall in place. Sand would be another option but you'll want to make sure it's protected and can't be stored up thus underminning the wall.
I take your thinking placing the wall on the flat bottom and a layer or two of fabric??

When I do the geotextile and liner, I'll sandwich the liner between 2 layers of geotextile but I wonder if that will be enough to protect the liner when compacting the gravel - did you compact the gravel in your trench for your wall? (I know I could probably find that in your build note, but I don't want to scroll through the 1,000+ posts, sorry!) I don't remember the weight of the geotextile layers I bought - I'll have to see if I can find it to give you an idea how tough/thick it is.

I've thought about sand under the wall because of how much easier it was when building the retaining walls that keep my flower beds from washing into the sidewalks, but I did have that same concern about it eroding with water movement or being dug up by fish. If I do gravel, the sharper kind can lock together better and not erode but I worry that it will punch holes in the liner when compacted. The rounded gravel is less likely to poke holes in the liner but also doesn't lock together under the stone so may affect the stability/integrity of the wall. That's why I was thinking of either digging the trench down an inch or two (my block is six inches tall) and just setting them on the liner sandwich, which would be on the rock-hard clay or just making sure the ground is completely level and letting the weight of the blocks hold things down, then filling in gaps with mortar or pond foam so the wall essentially becomes one mass of cement and is less likely to tip. I always understood that the gravel base under the wall was for drainage so you didn't get as much frost heave, but with this being a pond we don't really want drainage. so we should get the lock-in effect from just a 2 or 3 inch deep trench if I go that route, which I'll probably do when my new tiller comes on Thursday. I hope.

I've been spoiled over the years I know too well how fast and efficient and excavator can be but in the same breath. I have had my fair share of time in the seat.
Not a big fan of the almighty shovel here in New England way to many rocks of all sizes. And just to dig out a basket ball sized boulder could take over an hour.
So when I see you folks in south working with clay and no rock I get jealous and tip my hat to you as hand digging that kinda hole here is a herculean task.

Yeah, an excavator could help with the trenches now but it's more money and the ones with the reach that I need won't fit through my gate. So Any digging I want to do at this point has to be done by a tiller. I'm 300 pounds and jumping on a sharp round-mouth shovel only sinks the shovel blade an inch or so into the ground per jump because the ground is so hard.

 

[GBBUDD]

The gravel now is to disburse the weight. Here me out.
The way a culvert pipes works that is placed in a stream and we drive over is the pipe is placed, then depending on the size of the pipe and the weight of traffic to cross determins how much gravel is needed. Now yes there is course mediums and fines compacted onto of the culvert generally 12 inches or more to carry about most loads across.
This is due to a pyramid as the tire has a small surface area the weight as it goes into the gravel spreads out making the weight distributed evenly and by the time it reaches the pipe the weights per square inch are minimal.
So with the wall and ROUNDED gravel it doesn't need to be Delaware river rocks that is closer to being wafers. But river rock with no pointed edges is used . This is an 8 inch deep trench will help to disburse the weight. But you'll want 8 inches deep by a foot wide by your length. This will make it so the 1000 pounds of retaining wall only pushes down on the rubber by weighing far less per square inch even though you added more weight in stone than just the concrete weighs by its self.
The 8 inch extra depth of stone in a 12 inch deep trench can be reduced to 6 and 8 and the start of the wall is two inches lower than the bottom of the pond.
If you were to dump sand in the rock it will help keep any abundance of sludge from building up. But mostly it keeps the footings from being disturbed.

As far as liner by the looks of your soil if you compact with a hand tamp. Just about any underlayment even as low as a 6oz should be fine. But on the inside after you cover the whole liner add a second layer in the trench to insure no rock has split and become razor sharp and finds it's way to the liner.

 

[hamstermann]

The gravel now is to disburse the weight. Here me out.
The way a culvert pipes works that is placed in a stream and we drive over is the pipe is placed, then depending on the size of the pipe and the weight of traffic to cross determins how much gravel is needed. Now yes there is course mediums and fines compacted onto of the culvert generally 12 inches or more to carry about most loads across.
This is due to a pyramid as the tire has a small surface area the weight as it goes into the gravel spreads out making the weight distributed evenly and by the time it reaches the pipe the weights per square inch are minimal.
So with the wall and ROUNDED gravel it doesn't need to be Delaware river rocks that is closer to being wafers. But river rock with no pointed edges is used . This is an 8 inch deep trench will help to disburse the weight. But you'll want 8 inches deep by a foot wide by your length. This will make it so the 1000 pounds of retaining wall only pushes down on the rubber by weighing far less per square inch even though you added more weight in stone than just the concrete weighs by its self.
The 8 inch extra depth of stone in a 12 inch deep trench can be reduced to 6 and 8 and the start of the wall is two inches lower than the bottom of the pond.
If you were to dump sand in the rock it will help keep any abundance of sludge from building up. But mostly it keeps the footings from being disturbed.

oh, weight distribution. That makes sense too. Thanks, that was a great explanation.

As far as liner by the looks of your soil if you compact with a hand tamp. Just about any underlayment even as low as a 6oz should be fine. But on the inside after you cover the whole liner add a second layer in the trench to insure no rock has split and become razor sharp and finds it's way to the liner.

So If I'm understanding you right, the trench layers are geotextile, then liner, then geotextile (like I'm doing across the whole pond), then 8 inches of rounded river rock smaller than 3/4", then more geo, liner, geo, then the block, making sure the block is 2-3 inches lower than the pond bottom?

 

[GBBUDD]

My retaining wall was not within the pond but behind the liner. I did not want any signs that my pond was man made. The reason I filled my block and placed rebar was I knew I had some multi ton boulders that were going to lean into the wall . Was it overkill yup but I build to last I can not tell you how much I hate having to build something twice. I had the saying why is there never enough time to build it right the first time but always plenty of time to build it again EVERYWHERE when I was self employed

 

[GBBUDD]

oh, weight distribution. That makes sense too. Thanks, that was a great explanation.


So If I'm understanding you right, the trench layers are geotextile, then liner, then geotextile (like I'm doing across the whole pond), then 8 inches of rounded river rock smaller than 3/4", then more geo, liner, geo, then the block, making sure the block is 2-3 inches lower than the pond bottom?

The stone and then another layer of fabric is not a must but for a rookie it can help keep a solid base to put the blocks on and keep things from moving .. but again is not a Must

 

[hamstermann]

Got the trenches for the centipede and block wall dug yesterday and today, and got a layer of fabric and the liner down, then used some road base (sand and 3/4 minus gravel with some clay fines possibly mixed in) I had on hand to start filling the rock wall trench. I hope I don't regret that - we already found 3 holes in the liner, but they were on the patio along an edge in a piece that will be cut off.

All this in time for the rain tomorrow and again on Saturday. We're supposed to be the 4th driest state in the country, what's with all the rain this spring?

I also took the downspout out of the under-patio pipes that are currently daylighting under the liner. Now the spout will empty onto the cement patio where I'm hoping the slope will take the water away from the pond. I guess we'll see.

 

[GBBUDD]

All this in time for the rain tomorrow and again on Saturday. We're supposed to be the 4th driest state in the country, what's with all the rain this spring?

Exciting ....... well BEFORE YOU GET TOO CARRIED AWAY WITH THE BUILD AND TRUST ME I KNOW THE DESIRE TO FILL THE POND AND TO GET IT DONE . But if you found holes in the liner then you should fill the pond and let it sit. see if the water drops you don't want to live with a leak they can easily be 100 gallons a day OR MORE for a pin hole.

i QUESTION THE STEPS INTO THE POND ? THEY LOOK PRETTY NARROW YES 10" MAYBE THE AVERAGE STEP BUT when covered in bio film that's a narrow step .

I WOULD COVER YOUR CLAY WITH SAND WHEN YOUR WALLS ARE BUILT. TRAP IT SO IT DOES NOT GET INTO THE WATER COLUMN

 

[hamstermann]

Exciting ....... well BEFORE YOU GET TOO CARRIED AWAY WITH THE BUILD AND TRUST ME I KNOW THE DESIRE TO FILL THE POND AND TO GET IT DONE . But if you found holes in the liner then you should fill the pond and let it sit. see if the water drops you don't want to live with a leak they can easily be 100 gallons a day OR MORE for a pin hole. i QUESTION THE STEPS INTO THE POND ? THEY LOOK PRETTY NARROW YES 0" MAYBE THE AVERAGE STEP BUT when covered in bio film thats a narrow step

Oh man, the nightmares I'm about to have! Both for all the water used and having to drain it all out again, as well as the thought of pinholes in an area of the liner I'm not going to cut off.

 

[GBBUDD]

i know and it sucks but you really don't want to risk it do you. divert your gutters to the pond for the fill this will also show how much the clay may take to the water or will it stay locked up. i strongly advice as well using a meter when you start filling the final time so you know the exact gallons this can be critical down the road