Greenish pond - normal cycle for new?

[Mr-pond]

I tell you what... I wish the tall one was filled with foam pads. It's actually about 2/5 full of golf ball sized rocks, 2/5 full of gravel, and 1/5 full of plastic bioballs. It was a long hard winter and that thing tipped further and further forward towards the pond. I thought I had it leveled out but somehow it still fell into the pond and made a big mess. I am not a weak person but I needed help getting it back out. I got the tall barrel at Home Depot and the smaller one at a local garden center called Wedels.

assuming from your message you would make some changes if you did it again then? what can you advise differently if i did decide to do it from your experience?

 

[Mr-pond]

My suggestion is you try and explain what it is that you don't want as specifically as you can and in as much detail as you can. With some back and forth you'll learn the lingo a little (there's only a few common terms) and communication will become easier. Otherwise you risk being told fixes for problems you don't have and that can cause more problems and disappointment.

These things are actually very easy to fix...once the problem is understood

I think i have a way to go yet before getting to know all the lingo. I've been checking the pond over the last few days and I dont think I really have a problem. There are things I could hope for such as perfectly clear water, however at the moment I have no filters, no fountains, no streams so the water does sit still for the majority of the time.
Saying that... When it all settles, its not really that the water isnt clear - it is just a layer of i suppose natural buildup - on the top. I have a net and pull any leaves and petals.

I will give it some time and see how it goes and post any pictures of any pproblems

 

[dieselplower]

assuming from your message you would make some changes if you did it again then? what can you advise differently if i did decide to do it from your experience?

I think I would still fill the bottom of the container with some rocks but then cut a more typical filter floss media to fit in the middle, and then use free floating biomaterial in the top.

 

[topofthehill1]

I will say this knowing the people who posted above me have a lot more knowledge than I do.

This is tricky. In nature if you saw a pond of this size I doubt anyone could pay you enough to go in it. And I doubt you could see past the first inch. At least in the parts of the country I have lived in.

However, I came to pond from a lifetime of aquariums. So my first pond was maybe smaller than yours and had fish .A lifetime of aquariums had taught me to start small and go bigger. I did however take one of those indoor fountains put it on some bricks and partially submerged it just enough to keep mosquitos away and break the surface tension. If you get enough sun for the plants to grow you will probably get enough sun for algae to grow. If it were me I would put in a small pump that at least broke the surface tension of the water. I would probably go for an airpump, little electricity and still circulates the water.

Then after awhile you will convince yourself to get a filter.

 

[crsublette]

Thanks for all this.. i have been taking a look into the posts you linked. Just wondering at the moment if to do the filter seperate, or get a filter in the pump as I think my pond is only a small size. Saying that, I like the ideas of the whisky barrel and think it could make for a nice feature piece to, may even change how i wanted to do the waterfall.

Well, if you were to build a S&G filter inside the barrel, then you would not want the pump in the filter since it would be on the bottom and S&G filters a rarely deconstructed if they are properly blown out.

Install the pump so you have easy access to it.

For the barrel filter, you would simply have the pump's outtake entering the side, near ground level, of the barrel. Then, this allows the water to flow up through the filter medium and gravity flow out into the pond like a fountain.

To avoid the pump being an eye sore and to protect it from the weather elements, you can get a hallow fake rock cover to put over the pump, which there are some made specifically for pond pumps.

 

[Mr-pond]

In most cases I think it is true that a pond will clear. Adding plants can help by bring in string algae which can clear a pond almost over night, even faster than UV. But because these are living things it's always difficult to predict. The ponds that I've seen that stayed green for years didn't have a stream/waterfalls, just a pump, maybe a fountain. They'd have some plants that they bought when they first started the pond but the plants never did very well. I haven't run into a pond yet that had a stream/waterfall and stayed green for more than say a year. I attribute it to string algae but don't know for certain

Hey, so I have had a little more of a look. Tried to do a bit of research too to try help. So it's not green water at all. Saw some examples where they call it Pea Soup.. And yeah, mine isn't green at all. In fact, in sunlight I can see in the pond clearly most of the way down, even saw a new newt today. When it's cloudy it's more difficult to see but that's an optical illusion I think dependent on where the sun is reflecting etc.

So having checked over that, my only thing, which I believe is probably a form of algae. It's a thin green layer on the liner. When I use my net to pick up leaves etc it will just scratch off (is this what they use the vacuum for?). Also looking closely.. Theres thin green (I imagine stringy) strands.

I'm looking at a pond filter which obviously, I know you've mentioned there's lots to it, and what would clean. I believe the water if fairly clean, but would a filter clear up this green layer.. Or do I need to clean it separately?

Also, separate, I think I do have mosquito larvae. I was told of mosquito dunks. Is there anything else you might suggest too?
Thanks

 

[Waterbug]

OK, good. To narrow it down a bit more..

There are many kinds of algae that grow on the liner, rocks, etc. For cleaning we only care about how it behaves, so that's important. For example, if you can feel hair like strands we just call all the different kinds "string algae". It comes in different lengths, from 1" up to many feet long.

The short stuff most people like and leave it.

The long stuff is easiest to pull out by hand. Like mowing the lawn or weeding the garden. If you have plant pots the string algae is often in and around them so removal is difficult.The best option imo is to not have plant pots in the pond and and instead make beds for the marginals so the water level is a bit below the soil/gravel and no string algae.

Another attribute is whether the algae is attached to the liner, rocks, or whatever. The attached kind can be difficult, unattached comes out easy in one massive pull because it gets all tangled together. The attached kind you really are mowing the lawn.

Another attribute is life cycle. This tricky. All algae dies, but string algae is really slow to decompose. A common term for string algae is "blanket weed" which is more of a dead string algae that has floated to the surface in chunks or mats. Looks kind of gross.

So I hear 2 things in you last post..."It's a thin green layer on the liner. When I use my net to pick up leaves etc it will just scratch off (is this what they use the vacuum for?)" That sounds like either decomposing string algae or what I call a slime algae. In both cases these can break up easy when disturbed into pretty small bits and float around but normally settle most in less than an hour.

A green slime layer can also happen after a pond has been green (pea soup) and then cleared. All the dead single cell algae settles to the bottom, and they clump together a little.

Then... "Also looking closely.. Theres thin green (I imagine stringy) strands.". would be string algae.

What I don't know is whether you only have string algae or you also have stuff that breaks into little bits.

The little bits stuff can be removed with a vacuum or scooped out with a net. Using a net is very cheap and pretty easy too if your pond isn't too big. All these methods are very subjective. Some people love using a shop vac, I find them to be terrible. When removing the loose stuff don't get discouraged. Scoop slow. It will stir up so you can't get it all in one go. Do what you can and do another cleaning the next day or weekend. You can get a pond surprisingly clean this way. The stirring up also helps other goods things to happen so it not just the removal that's good.

There are filters that can remove the loose stuff, but that's pretty complex to get right. There are tons of DIY things that say they work but I don't they do. "Worked" is also a subjective term. The key for all of these is getting something to sweep the loose stuff to the filter which is normally done with water jets. Then the filters themselves are an issue. Tons of bad ones and a few good ones. But, they have to be cleaned. To me cleaning a net after scooping is easier than pulling a filter apart and washing a mat. And the net is way faster because after you dump one scoop you're ready to get the next. With a filter you have to put it back together and wait until it clogs again. That's a long process. Filters are really more for keeping a clean pond clean (assuming its a whole system not just something that says it works).

If your pond is large, a vacuum can remove the loose stuff. Something like my Silt Vac.That removes water from the pond so there is a limit to how much it can be used. You don't really want to remove more than 10% of the pond's water per day. And you really want to understand how to do a water change because that's exactly what you'd be doing.

But normally I first vacuum with a different kind of vacuum which doesn't remove water from the pond. Something like my Muck Mop or these types. These don't remove the little bits, they only remove larger stuff like leaves, dead loose string algae, etc. Then I wait for the water to settle back down and when I use the Silt Vac there's nothing much down there to clog the pump so it's way easier.

Once the pond is clean you can keep it clean by using the Muck Mop type vac weekly or monthly which will greatly reduce the build up of the loose little bits stuff. That alone can keep a pond surprisingly clean. And over time it can also greatly improve water clarity.

You can also brush the pond sides if you want so stuff is easier to vacuum.

A warning...removing some algae can cause the water to turn green, I mean like in the week or two that follows, not while you're cleaning. In general that won't happen because often you can't get all the algae out. But it is possible. Algae does have pluses. For example it is very good at consuming ammonia. So if you have a lot of fish and remove the algae you could get an ammonia problem. In most ponds that won't happen, but I don't know your pond.

So basically there are different methods. It just a matter of finding one you like best for your pond.

We can also take this to the extreme and use chemicals to kill algae. You still have to remove the dead stuff so you'd be back to all that stuff above. But once the initial algae is killed and removed chemicals can be used to stop new algae from growing...kind of. I haven't personally seen a pond that was swimming pool clean with chemicals. There are kinds of algae that do seem to still be able to grow, but these all seem to be mat type algae. Almost like a sponge. Most people don't mind that too much. Chemicals can hurt fish...no matter what the bottle says on the front. And if the dose is wrong they can kill fish. But it is an option some people use. In a small pond I think there are way easier ways.

 

[Waterbug]

Just went back and saw the pic of your pond. Yes, for that size pond I would just use a net to scoop stuff out. Something like a Leaf Rake. I probably wouldn't use a vacuum even if I had one with me.

With all the plants string algae can be a pain. I prefer moving the marginals out of the water and into beds. That makes life much easier. I fought string algae for years until I did that and then it was never an issue. Still got string algae but it was easy to remove.

 

[Waterbug]

Mosquito dunks work but you have to keep up with them. Not sure if this is a Wildlife Pond.I like Mosquitofish to control mosquitoes. Most effective and entertaining. Pretty much any fish will greatly reduce mosquito larvae.

 

[Mr-pond]

Just went back and saw the pic of your pond. Yes, for that size pond I would just use a net to scoop stuff out. Something like a Leaf Rake. I probably wouldn't use a vacuum even if I had one with me.

With all the plants string algae can be a pain. I prefer moving the marginals out of the water and into beds. That makes life much easier. I fought string algae for years until I did that and then it was never an issue. Still got string algae but it was easy to remove.

Decided best way.. Post some pics and experienced people will know lol.

As far as mosquito fish, you mentioned them before, but said they eat a lot of things too. Also how much work is required for them?

 

[Waterbug]

I see exactly now. It's a little hard to tell where this stuff comes from but I call it dead algae. I say this because if you take a brand new pond, it turns green (pea soup you call it) and then the water clears (UV filter kills the algae) what I see is this same stuff covering the bottom. It's like dust settling out of the air, very even coat, stirs up easy.

It stays green because although it's dead it hasn't completely broken down. Single cell algae (pea soup kind) clump together into colonies has they start to get damaged to try and protect themselves. As the colonies get bigger they're more likely to sink to the bottom. So I say it's "dead" but that's not really a hard line in the plant/bacteria world. Dead and dying is probably better.

Even a clear pond will produce some green water algae, but it has a hard time surviving, dies and falls to the bottom. So even ponds with a UV filter and clear will get this stuff.

But everything that dies in the pond breaks down, floats around suspended in the water and eventually settles into this stuff. My term for this is muck. At your stage it doesn't seem very muck like, but as it gets thicker over years it becomes more what most people would call muck.

The amount of stuff you have is what I wouldn't be surprised to see in most ponds a few weeks after vacuuming. It's not a lot of stuff is what I'm saying by many people's standards. Very normal.

What to do.

Most Water Garden people don't worry about and that's fine. Some like it if they have a bare liner because muck looks better. I like mortared rock bottom ponds so I'm not a fan of muck.

When you get into Koi Ponds which have higher fish loads people start to not want this stuff. It uses O2 and does produce harmful gases. Some people freak out about the harmful gases thing but in a Water Garden that's an over reaction. Fish and ponds have been handling these things for millions of years. It's the same as saying car
exhaust is harmful to people. It is harmful, but we're around cars all the time breathing that junk in. We may die early because of it but not today and we gladly trade the health risk for the convenience. So these things aren't black and white. You have choices.

The big downside to me is as this stuff decomposes it gets smaller and smaller and starts to float back up and suspend in the water again. That can make the water less clear. If you look really close it looks like ground pepper suspended in the water. You start seeing that in ponds after say 5 years. Could be 1 year, could be 20. That stuff is kind of hard to remove.

So I like to remove this stuff on a regular basis so I can see the rocks and also because it makes the water clearer long term. It's not just the removal either. When you remove say 90% that only leaves 10% for bacteria to eat. That's a job they can handle better. Plus the stirring gets more O2 in there. Just like turning a compost pile.

So I use the Silt Vac for this kind of stuff.

But a fine mesh net can work like a scoop. Those green minnow nets in pet stores work great. But it's slow. You have to scoop really slowly and you can't scoop much. The muck plugs the mesh and that stops more muck from going into the net because the water can't exit thru the mesh any more. So it's more like shoveling. I did this in my smallest pond and it worked surprisingly well. I was amazed really.

After you remove that stuff, and it can take several goes, you can use a larger net and more open mesh, something like a swimming pool leaf rake once a week to just poke around on the bottom and get what you can. That removes leaves, string algae, etc. That can greatly reduce the amount of muck that accumulates on the bottom which reduces work. I have a saying in the pond cleaning business, easier to remove big stuff before it becomes little stuff. plus this stirs the bottom which helps bacteria decompose what's left. That can reduce Silt Vac use from once a month to once a year or even several years.

 

[Waterbug]

As far as mosquito fish, you mentioned them before, but said they eat a lot of things too. Also how much work is required for them?

I don't know your location. You can set that in your profile so it appears under your name by each post.

In cold climates Mosquitofish might have to be replaced once a year. Depends on pond depth, winter and species of
Mosquitofish. There are Mosquitofish species native to fairly cold climates. You can overwinter some indoors pretty easy. A fish biologist once told me they stock with 6 fish to make sure their was at least one female and one male, so I would overwinter some number more than 6. Seemed reasonable.

Beyond that they're zero work. If you feed them they will reproduce (given warm enough water) amazingly fast. When food is reduced they die back...but I've never actually seen a dead Mosquitofish that I can remember. So I don' think their dead bodies are too much for a Water Garden to handle.

They eat pretty much any bug, but they sure do love mosquito larvae. Very entertaining to add some larvae and watch them eat (you have to be nose to the water to see the show). To see a fish battle a larvae that's almost as big as them is like watching a Ray Harryhausen movie. Any when they get something in their mouth too big to shallow others will chase them and they'll go to the surface and flick their tail an sail thru the air like a foot across the water to get away. Great show.

But yeah they eat many kinds of bugs. For people that want a Wildlife Pond that can be an issue. For people who want a Water Garden it's no problem.

 

[crsublette]

Decided best way.. Post some pics and experienced people will know lol.

Yeah, that algae looks like the type of algae that grows for new ponds or after I have sprayed down then drained my pond really good. The algae falls apart like dust almost and never grows too big when it is just on the walls and floor. I often seen a type of algae like that also growing on new aquatic plants after a few weeks of putting them into the pond; if it is not knocked off the plant, which it falls off very easy, then it can suffocate the plant. It is a type of green or brown dust algae or a type of diatom algae.

This is the good type of algae that you want in your pond since it is very easy to deal with.

 

[Waterbug]

It's dead and dying algae.

 

[addy1]

mr-pond wear a good pair of sunglasses when looking at your pond, a lot easier to see into the water.

I have the green stuff, some is like a fine carpet algae, most is muck, dead dying debris whatever that gets into the pond and settles on the bottom. Every now and then I will take a pool leaf net and scoop it out. I personally don't worry about it, covers the liner, does not look bad to me, the snails, fry, dragonfly larvae and tads love the stuff.
If it gets thick I do remove it, but a 1/8 inch layer I don't care about.

.. And yeah, mine isn't green at all. In fact, in sunlight I can see in the pond clearly most of the way down, even saw a new newt today. When it's cloudy it's more difficult to see but that's an optical illusion I think dependent on where the sun is reflecting etc.