Flashing because of ammonia?

[Dave 54]

Dave, I have 2 skimmers with mechanical filters. Also another mechanical filter with the waterfalls.
My reply to your earlier post:
I do have a stream about 4 feet long that I will get some gravel to add to. Right now the stones are larger pebbles and maybe they are not filtering as good as with gravel. Are Ammo rocks similar to the bio-chips you are referring to? I know they have them at our local pond store. Perhaps I should put some in the stream or maybe in the upper very small pond (less than 100 gallons) that flows into the stream?

I would really like to improve my filtration without revamping my current set up. Will doing what I mention above make a difference and is this considered biofiltration????

I need to see your filters saying its a mechanical filter means nothing but you can judge if its the right size from a photo of both before we can figure out between us all if you need to upgrade.
My filters are huge for one reason what we have in our back garden is a retro-fitted QT pond from a koi dealership which is capable of holding over 100 6 inch koi no problem you may want to buy something like a multi bay filter to upgrade of which there are many varieties .

Dave

 

[kmarcel]

Dave, the filters are in my skimmer all part of the skimmer system with the pump, basket etc. They are 2 plastic sections with the filter medium inside which pull out. Both of the filters are set up that way. How is this multi bay filtration system set up?

dieselplower, I get the bio balls, sponges, etc. but where do you put this bucket or this filtration system Dave mentions?? I did get some ammo rocks tonight and put them at the beginning of my stream where the upper waterfalls goes into. Wouldn't the water going over that down the stream and into my pond have the same effect? Wouldn't the gravel in a stream serve the same purpose?

 

[kmarcel]

Follow up question. I have an upper pond that a waterfalls drops into, then goes down a short stream about 4-5" then another waterfalls drops into the main pond. If I put a mesh bag with ammo rocks or these other articles, lava rocks, etc. in that upper pond would that do pretty much the same thing as this bucket you refer to?

 

[Mmathis]

I think the issue is ammonia, which shows between .25 -.50. First noticed flashing Wed last week. Had previously a few days before done a 10% water change, then Sat did a 25%, cleaned mechanical filters, added salt and beneficial bacteria. Last week when I first noticed the flashing added Ammo lock. PH between 7.0-7.5. The funny thing is that I only notice them flashing around 7ish at night. They don't rub against sides of pond and always seem to flash in the same location in the pond, very strange. Some nights it's only one or two different fish that do it. Usually the larger fish, have not noticed my smaller ones doing it. I assume they're more affected by the water conditions.

I have never had flashing before and never (that I'm aware of) had ammonia problems. So I'm wondering what's causing it. Last year, late summer, I expanded the pond from approximately 800 gallons to about 1200. I have two skimmers with mechanical filters, one in the newer section that pumps up to some large rocks and trickles down into pond. The 2nd skimmer goes into a small upper pond via a waterfalls (which has a filter) down a short stream then another waterfalls in to larger section of pond. Also have 2 bubblers, one in each pond. The pond is a figure 8 shape.

I don't think there's a fish load problem as some of my koi are small (lost several to a heron a few years ago) and there are fewer than when I had just the smaller pond due to losing 3 over winter.

There a 3 newer fish in pond but they don't flash and I know the place I got them from is very good about treating for possible parasites before selling.

My questions/concerns are should I use Ammo-lock or another ammonia binder while I'm trying to get the ammonia level down? I had been told by one pond place that it locks the ammonia and I should just stop feeding (which I have), check level and do water changes twice a week if needed and add the beneficial bacteria. She felt added the beneficial bacteria and just let the pond get itself stabilized was better than using an ammonia binder, after all fish flashing are normal. I always thought flashing was not good.

Is it true that Ammo lock or ammonia binders "lock" the ammonia level, which to me indicates that I won't be able to lower the level while I'm treating with it. Does flashing hurt the fish? There are no red streaks and other than the occasional flashing they appear as normal. However, sometimes when they flash they jump right up into the air. That makes me uneasy. Does that go along with the flashing? Also, if it is recommended to use Ammo lock or similar, how often can you use it? How often should I do water changes, clean filters and add the beneficial bacteria?

Sorry so lengthy and so many questions. These fish are stressing me. I thought they were suppose to lower my blood pressure!

Could they be spawning & not flashing?

 

[kmarcel]

Mmathis, I can't be sure but they're not chasing each other so I don't think so.

 

[CometKeith]

Hi kmarcel, I think that by adding the newer pond liner last year it is taking your pond more time to cycle than usual. I'm not a big believer in adding chemicals. I think that when your water quality is good then everything takes care of itself. I would look into either buying or making a biofilter. I think the bb is much more effective when you have one. I can tell almost instantly when my pond has cycled and the bb is doing its job. I think it's interesting how you put the two liners together with water in one of them while you were doing it. I have thought of doing that myself. I wouldn't worry about cutting down their play area when doing water changes....after all they probably have a memory like a goldfish!

 

[kmarcel]

CometKeith, So when you say you don't think I should add chemicals, are you referring to the beneficial bacteria - Medzyme is what I'm using, or the Ammo lock? I do want to add biofiltering and I'm trying to figure out how to do it. I did put ammo rocks at the mouth of the stream. I have a waterfall filter that has a mechanical media pad in it. I have read where you can put bio filters on top of the mechanical filter in that waterfall box, whether it be bioballs or Springflo. This is what I'm trying to figure out.

As far as extending my pond I have read where some people did this, Two years ago we had replaced the liner so I know even suggesting to my husband that I wanted to expand the pond and replace that new liner wouldn't go over. So I dug a hole next to my main pond, put in the new liner, lowered water in main pond, dug the connecting area or channel down to the shelf height and sealed the liners together, refilled the pond and it took less than 1 hour for the fish to swim over. Of course that was the very simplified version of what we went through, but very happy with the results. The channel that they swim back in forth is less than 12" deep and about 2' x 2'. If you're contemplating it, I would say go for it. The sealant product out there works great, no leaks.

 

[Troutredds]

I need to see your filters saying its a mechanical filter means nothing but you can judge if its the right size from a photo of both before we can figure out between us all if you need to upgrade.
My filters are huge for one reason what we have in our back garden is a retro-fitted QT pond from a koi dealership which is capable of holding over 100 6 inch koi no problem you may want to buy something like a multi bay filter to upgrade of which there are many varieties .

Dave

Dave's oh so right on the need for pics of your setup. Without seeing what your're describing no one can specifically address your particular situation. Dave and others here have been doing this for decades but need visual evidence to accurately assess your concerns.

 

[kmarcel]

Now I'm really stressing! I have more fish flashing and more often. I put the ammo lock and ammo rocks in last evening assuming that would calm them down until I get this ammonia situation resolved. I tested ammonia this am. The same as it's been, about .25 - .50, hard to tell, maybe somewhere in between. PH 7.5.

I'm wondering if the issue is parasites. I got a new fish a week ago and then this seemed to start shortly after. However so far I haven't seen that fish flash. No, I did not quarantine the fish before putting in pond. I always get my fish from this place and they treat them before selling and never had a problem.

If it's an ammonia problem causing the flashing wouldn't the ammo lock have slowed it down instead of it seeming worse?

I have a member from the koi club who can come scrape and test, but she's not available until Fri afternoon. I don't have a microscope and wouldn't know what to do if I did. Is there anything I should do in the meantime?

 

[dieselplower]

I gotta tell ya, when you said ammonia was .5 earlier, I did not think that was the problem. Does the fish have clamped fins? White spots on it? Can you catch them and take close up pictures? I do not know anything about diagnosing fish illnesses but I know enough to tell when something is wrong. You are going to need to catch some fish for the koi club lady anyway so you might as well do it now as they can be hard to catch!

 

[kmarcel]

I noticed that one of the fish fin on one side is sort of close to it's side, more so than previously. It's not like that all the time. The lady from the koi club is coming here, bringing her big netting and everything else to do this. She will call me tomorrow and I'm hoping she'll come by tomorrow instead of waiting to Fri. I could try to catch it but I haven't had to do that in years - when pond was much smaller. I know she's the one everyone in club calls to do all the treatments when there's issues, so I think she can catch much faster without stressing them.

I am able to see close up - somewhat - and haven't noticed any white spots. I will see if I can take a picture.

 

[Dave 54]

Now I'm really stressing! I have more fish flashing and more often. I put the ammo lock and ammo rocks in last evening assuming that would calm them down until I get this ammonia situation resolved. I tested ammonia this am. The same as it's been, about .25 - .50, hard to tell, maybe somewhere in between. PH 7.5.

I'm wondering if the issue is parasites. I got a new fish a week ago and then this seemed to start shortly after. However so far I haven't seen that fish flash. No, I did not quarantine the fish before putting in pond. I always get my fish from this place and they treat them before selling and never had a problem.

If it's an ammonia problem causing the flashing wouldn't the ammo lock have slowed it down instead of it seeming worse?

I have a member from the koi club who can come scrape and test, but she's not available until Fri afternoon. I don't have a microscope and wouldn't know what to do if I did. Is there anything I should do in the meantime?

The number of times I've said to people QT your fish before putting them into your pond for eight weeks minimum I've lost count of over the years as it can be a rather expensive lesson to learn if your fish die from this, so I'll say it yet again Please in future QT your new fish you know its not worth the risk , whats eight weeks in the sceme of things ???
Could you please take a look at your fish and tell us what you see better still photos close ups of your fish so that we can at least try to diagnose their problem
I'm also posting a free diagnostic chart for you to try match up what your seeing

Please feel free to copy it off for future reference it'll come in useful to you but first we need to know what the problem is that is afflicting your fish
Any other forum member who wishes to save this off is also free to do so

Dave

 

[kmarcel]

Dave, I couldn't get a good enough photo to show, but I did get a good look at them. I can tell you I do not see anything that is in the chart, at least that can be seen without a microscope. My largest koi fins scales on it's back almost seem kind of rough or a little raised, not as smooth as always has been. I don't know how else to describe it. The next largest one that looks like the fish on the chart does not have any white spots because it doesn't show up on the orange/red coloring.

I fed them a little to get them to come close enough to really check them out. They didn't have any clamped fins at least while they were eating and swimming around afterwards. I did notice before that when they were kind of quiet and not swimming as much, that a couple of them had their fin just on one side close to their body. I know I hadn't seen that before because I had been reading about clamped fins and watched for it.

 

[kmarcel]

Also I just did another PH (7.5) same as this am. Ammonia looks to be .50. Thought the pond had a bit of an odor to it. But could that be from the ammo lock, ammo rocks and or MedZyme? The pond does not have debris in the bottom, can see straight down to the bottom, which I know doesn't mean good quality, but at least it's not an odor because of dirt and rotting stuff at bottom.

I'm just fearful I'm going to start losing them.

 

[Dave 54]

We need for you to get to the bottom of this rather rapidly please report anything you see that you feel is getting worse raising scales worry me but it could still be one of a number of things cant you catch the worst put it in a tank and take photo's of it Please

Dave