Fishless pond cycling.

[JohnHuff]

@Mucky_Waters, ya sorry. I meant to say reactors and not moving bed. I'm finding that a lot of waste water systems don't use media at all. Some of them use air, some just use paddle wheels to move the stuff around. They're called activated sludge. So does that mean all ponders need is an empty container with an air bubbler?

I did some more Googling and find that MBR is being used everywhere from China to Ireland. Here's a good picture:

 

[crsublette]

@JohnHuff @Mucky_Waters


Incredibly interesting. Sounds to be quite ground breaking.

Newterra's use of 0.04 micron in waste water treatment is quite impressive. I wonder if it is actually true, which I guess it must be, that even bacteria cannot pass 0.04 micron pores, as the initial home waste water page diaphragm suggests. Quite amazing in how the negative pressure, backpulsing, fine bubble air, and the membrane's fibrous substances prevents clogging due to bio-film creation.

Yep, Randy, I think you're right on the money about the "biological treatment process" tanks, that is they are aeration tanks rather than fluidized medium tanks. Reading the site right now, but I have not yet seen them mention anything about fluidized medium. For us, I can see how they acronyms get confused. For us, MBBR / MBR / FBR = moving / fluidize bead bio reactor. For Newterra, MBR simply means moving bio reactor.

These "biological treatment process" tanks, or aeration tanks, appear to me to be simply mineralization tanks. Although, I don't think the bacteria is "free floating" nor have I read anything yet that have suggested this.

The mineralization tank systems are simply using severe aeration to literally pulverize the fish waste so then what is left over is the portion of the waste that can not be decomposed any further, which is essentially mulm or sludge involving various sand particles, other particles, etc. and, as far I am aware, the bacteria them self live on this fine particle mulm.

In the wastewater installation section, there is mention of a sludge holding tank. So, I imagine, if there is any particles or mulm or sludge that is heavier than water, then this solid remains in the sludge holding tank so to dispose it. I figure the sludge is essentially "soil", that may contain other non-decomposable small particles.

 

[crsublette]

So does that mean all ponders need is an empty container with an air bubbler?

Possibly, which this is already somewhat "jimmy rigged" already created and tested by university fellows that got the aqua-ponic craze really going.

Construction, installation, and management is everything. For example, the type of zeolite we use in our ponds is also used in waste water treatment, but the implementation of their system's construction, installation, and management is incredibly precise. Essentially, with the way we currently use Zeolite in our own pond context, I would not be surprised if we are only using just 5% of Zeolites full potential.

In aqua-ponics, after their mineralization, rather than a 0.04 micron membrane for fines polishing, they use bio-film as their polishing filter. They essentially fill up a huge settlement container with strapping or K1 or other manageable medium and the fine particles stick to the bio-film. However, at the end of this, the water is essentially void of any oxygen and full of all sorts of carbon dioxide, hydrogen sulfide, and other toxic gases. So, then the water goes into a "degassing chamber", which is essentially a small container with very heavy aeration. The final solution is a water with zero ammonia and polished quite well, but it is all about the implementation of the system's construction, installation, and management. The systems I have seen are quite huge.

 

[JohnHuff]

@crsublette @Mucky_Waters
According to this page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activated_sludge
the empty tanks just contain "floc".

Seems things move quickly. The last time I looked at waste water treatment, which wasn't that long ago, I saw huge containers all containing media.

 

[crsublette]

@crsublette @Mucky_Waters
According to this page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activated_sludge
the empty tanks just contain "floc".

Seems things move quickly. The last time I looked at waste water treatment, which wasn't that long ago, I saw huge containers all containing media.

Yeah, from how I read it, the "floc" is essentially coagulated particles containing various microorganisms, flora, etc. Then this floc is eventually allowed to settle so to be removed to maintain balance in the system. This "floc" remains in suspension due to air. So, it is not necessarily "free floating" since it gets heavy enough to settle and requires mechanisms to keep it afloat.

It would be quite interesting to read an analysis of this floc in activated sludge. I imagine it would have to contain some type of particles that simply can not be decomposed.

One of the major reasons why mature corn and beans is tough for us to digest is that the microorganisms and acid in our intestines and stomach have an incredibly difficult time decomposing the lignin in these terrestrial plants. I would think it is this type of "stuff" that causes the floc to become heavy and allowed to settle and gives these microorganisms, flora, etc, an anchor.

 

[dieselplower]

@JohnHuff @Mucky_Waters


Incredibly interesting. Sounds to be quite ground breaking.

Newterra's use of 0.04 micron in waste water treatment is quite impressive. I wonder if it is actually true, which I guess it must be, that even bacteria cannot pass 0.04 micron pores, as the initial home waste water page diaphragm suggests.

Where did you get that .04 micron info? What is passing through there? I dont believe much could pass through that. The finest filter available for my diesel trucks fuel system is 5 micron, and the system operates at over 24,000 psi when I put the go pedal to the floor. The finest aftermarket filtration available is 2 micron. .04 would be 50 times smaller wouldnt it? Not argueing, just curious.

 

[crsublette]

Where did you get that .04 micron info? What is passing through there? I dont believe much could pass through that. The finest filter available for my diesel trucks fuel system is 5 micron, and the system operates at over 24,000 psi when I put the go pedal to the floor. The finest aftermarket filtration available is 2 micron. .04 would be 50 times smaller wouldnt it? Not argueing, just curious.

My guess is that it works since diesel is not water, that is diesel is a compound much heavier than water. I think you are essentially trying to suggest "oil" in a water filter system, which I would think the two would not mix in filtration since they do not mix in solution. You're talking oranges, that is diesel, and the .04 microns is talking apples, that is water.

Here under the specifications section is the 0.04 µm next to pore size. I believe the negative pressure, that is a vacuum, and fine bubble aeration is how the water passes through it amongst the other variables to prevent it from clogging.

 

[crsublette]

@crsublette @Mucky_Waters
Seems things move quickly. The last time I looked at waste water treatment, which wasn't that long ago, I saw huge containers all containing media.

Yep, I think you got it there, that is where you say "seems things move quickly." I believe my theory about there being an anchor is incorrect due to the statement in the Wiki article stating below...

"Not until much later was it realized that what had actually occurred was a means to concentrate biological organisms, decoupling the liquid retention time (ideally, low, for a compact treatment system) from the solids retention time (ideally, fairly high, for an effluent low in BOD5 and ammonia.)."

 

[crsublette]

Ever wondered about really doing the cycling of a new pond with only straight household ammonia? Anyone have any experience on input on doing this? A friend of mine just cranked up his new pond and we are attempting doing this. Monday after the water had been in the pond for a week. All leaks and issues had been addressed. New skimmer, filter falls, and a bog almost a third of the size of the pond at the surface area. We started adding 1 cup of ammonia at a time until we reached 1.0 ppm,( 3 -1/2 cups) then after 24 hours the ammonia dropped to .50 after a big rain and we added another cup to get it back to 1.0ppm. That was last night and I'm waiting a report. My plan is to get him to add a filter sponge from an established pond but I'm not sure when the best time to add it would be? My thinking wait until I start seeing nitrites. Also, Would the additions of plants in the bog be a good or bad idea at this point? My thinking, wait.
I'll try to update regularly to allow everyone to see how this develops out.

Sorry Larkin! Bah, I need to get into the habit of creating a new thread when these interesting little side conversation tid-bits are shared in someone else's thread.

 

[dieselplower]

My guess is that it works since diesel is not water, that is diesel is a compound much heavier than water. I think you are essentially trying to suggest "oil" in a water filter system, which I would think the two would not mix in filtration since they do not mix in solution. You're talking oranges, that is diesel, and the .04 microns is talking apples, that is water.

Here under the specifications section is the 0.04 µm next to pore size. I believe the negative pressure, that is a vacuum, and fine bubble aeration is how the water passes through it amongst the other variables to prevent it from clogging.

I wasnt trying to dispute it was possible or whatever, just giving an example of how small that actually is.

 

[JohnHuff]

Yeah, from how I read it, the "floc" is essentially coagulated particles containing various microorganisms, flora, etc. Then this floc is eventually allowed to settle so to be removed to maintain balance in the system. This "floc" remains in suspension due to air. So, it is not necessarily "free floating" since it gets heavy enough to settle and requires mechanisms to keep it afloat.

It would be quite interesting to read an analysis of this floc in activated sludge. I imagine it would have to contain some type of particles that simply can not be decomposed.

I always like to apply new stuff to my pond. But in this case, I don't think I will be able to use an empty tank as my reactor.

My current main biofilter is a moving bed reactor with bioballs. It is fed from a prefilter, as a result, the water going in is clean and clear. There isn't any floc there, and I think the water is entering and leaving it too quickly for any "free floating" bacteria to work.

The bioballs themselves are clean, I don't see any biofilm on them. And actually, it might be that I have too much biofiltration. I have 3 filters plus plants for a 800g pond with only about a dozen fish (gf and 3 koi), the biggest one being only 8 inches, more than 1/2 being 3 inches or less, so I might not have enough waste.

 

[Fishylove]

I thought you were simplifying your life John

 

[Mucky_Waters]

I always like to apply new stuff to my pond. But in this case, I don't think I will be able to use an empty tank as my reactor.

My current main biofilter is a moving bed reactor with bioballs. It is fed from a prefilter, as a result, the water going in is clean and clear. There isn't any floc there, and I think the water is entering and leaving it too quickly for any "free floating" bacteria to work.

The bioballs themselves are clean, I don't see any biofilm on them. And actually, it might be that I have too much biofiltration. I have 3 filters plus plants for a 800g pond with only about a dozen fish (gf and 3 koi), the biggest one being only 8 inches, more than 1/2 being 3 inches or less, so I might not have enough waste.

I see your problem john, you don't have enough flocing fish.

Well, I just started a chapter in my study book dedicated to Activated Sludge, so in a few days I hope to understand it a little better.