Fishless cycle

[IPA]

There used to be a chart available where you could calculate a more exact amount to what ammonia you could add in by measuring your initial fish size/population.

It looks like they've replaced the chart with this page:
https://russellwatergardens.com/pages/metabolization-rates-of-biological-filters

You can use the information on that page to approximate the ammonia output of your initial fish population.

.

I followed the source links at the bottom and have been reading all about Koi pollution.
http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/filtration/koi1pollution.htm

 

[Magzire]

I just got a tank cycled in less than two weeks with fish using Evolution Aqua Pure. I noticed using a heater seemed to help, set at 22C.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I noticed using a heater seemed to help, set at 22C.

Maintain a temperature to 25C - 30C for optimum nitrification efficiency.

 

[cas]

I believe that this is the link that you were looking for @MitchM

https://russellwatergardens.com/pages/koi-length-and-weight

I was glad you provided the new link. Earlier this year I tried to find this information and the old link was gone. However, the information in this new link is different than the old link. Do you happen to know which information is correct? Here are the old and new numbers. It looks like the new ammonia numbers are the same as the weight with the decimal point moved.

 

[IPA]

@cas , according to both links, fish produce .1 gram of ammonia per 1000 gram of body weight (per day) excreted through the gills which would support the new value. Could the old value include the ammonia produced by solid waste as well? which is 1 gram of waste per 3 grams of fish, and I don't know if that also includes what is excreted through the gills. I read the amount of ammonia from solid waste produced following links from this tread and supporting articles but cannot find it now.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I have contacted Russell Water Gardens and asked for an explanation for the obvious discrepancy. Hopefully they will respond.......and soon.

 

[IPA]

My previous post stated incorrect amount of ammonia excreted through gills. The correct amount is .1 gram per 1,000 grams of body weight per day according to previously listed sources in this thread.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

None of these values are set in stone. Amount of feed per day and % protein level of feed directly impact the Ammonia secretion level.

 

[Gordo33]

I am on third week into fishless cycle and run into a quandary. Ammonia finally began to get processed to nitrite and now I don't know how to proceed. My ammonia is 0 and nitrite is greater than 2.0 ppm. Do I keep adding enough ammonia to reach, say .25 ppm to keep Nitrosamines feed or do I just not add any ammonia for a time and how long? At what point do I need to become alarmed at nitrite levels?

I am in the process of cycling a 35 gal tank for new Discus fish. I started with a dose to get 4-5 ppm ammonia reading. (Double what I used in the original post).Then waited for the ammonia to read less than 0.5ppm. I then added half the ammonia level when the reading dropped to 0-0.5 ppm. The nitrites reading was off the chart but after 8 days the ammonia was at zero within 24 hrs. I kept dosing ammonia with 1/2 my original dose. Three weeks in the cycle stalled and the ammonia took 2-3 days to read zero. I checked the pH and the pH dropped to 6.0--bright yellow on the chart.. I did a 50% WC which took the pH back to 7.6. Two days later the ammonia returned to zero and the nitrite was at 1. I continued to dose half the ammonia and the following day the ammo and nitrite was at zero. For the past week I have crept the ammonia dose to 80% of the original dose. The tank is cycling the ammonia and Nitrite within 24 hours. I will cont this dose until the fish arrive --hopefully this Saturday---and do a large WC to knock down the nitrates.

Lesson learned for me was keep an eye on the pH. If the pH becomes acidic the bacteria will become dormant.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I am in the process of cycling a 35 gal tank for new Discus fish. I started with a dose to get 4-5 ppm ammonia reading. (Double what I used in the original post).Then waited for the ammonia to read less than 0.5ppm. I then added half the ammonia level when the reading dropped to 0-0.5 ppm. The nitrites reading was off the chart but after 8 days the ammonia was at zero within 24 hrs. I kept dosing ammonia with 1/2 my original dose. Three weeks in the cycle stalled and the ammonia took 2-3 days to read zero. I checked the pH and the pH dropped to 6.0--bright yellow on the chart.. I did a 50% WC which took the pH back to 7.6. Two days later the ammonia returned to zero and the nitrite was at 1. I continued to dose half the ammonia and the following day the ammo and nitrite was at zero. For the past week I have crept the ammonia dose to 80% of the original dose. The tank is cycling the ammonia and Nitrite within 24 hours. I will cont this dose until the fish arrive --hopefully this Saturday---and do a large WC to knock down the nitrates.

Lesson learned for me was keep an eye on the pH. If the pH becomes acidic the bacteria will become dormant.

I would check the GH and KH before adding any fish and adjust as needed.

 

[Gordo33]

I would check the GH and KH before adding any fish and adjust as needed.

The KH for the cycling tank is 5 drops which is 50-100 ppm range.. My display tank is 3 drops which i0-50 ppm range on the results chart. Discus fish require a low KH.
I do not have a GH test kit.. is there a relationship between KH and GH ?

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I am not even close to be considered knowledgeable in Discus care, but what little reading that I have done suggests that they are really not that much different than other fish in regards to water quality parameter with the exception of when they are breeding and then it is a question of egg and larvae survival. For display purposes,the same water quality parameters that suffice3 for most other fish works well for them.

My concern in regards GH and KH is that if KH is low 20 ppm or less, pH becomes very unstable and crashes are common place. No fish, including Discus, benefit from these events.....very stressful.
GH is important because it measures the level of all of the dissolved mineral in a water column, not just carbonate (KH). These various minerals are quite important to the overall health of all fish, GH also , simply put, bolsters, KH.

Here is some basic info (most, if not all, you may already know).

PH
Display – 6.5 – 7.5
Breeding – 5.5 – 6.5
Grow-Out – 6.8 – 7.5

Hardness:
Display – 10–15 GH, 5-8 KH
Breeding – 1-4 GH, 0-1 KH
Growing-Out – 8-15 GH, 5-8KH

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=54196


Discus require very soft water and there are numerous commercially available products that claim to reduce water hardness. However, before trying commercial products, there are some other methods you may choose to try. Before we go into detail about how to reduce the GH of your water, we suggest that you first test the GH of your tap water so that you have a starting point. The GH of your discus aquarium will vary depending on the reason why you’re keeping them. Note that the lower the GH of the water, the more unstable the PH. So although a lower GH may be necessary for some types of discus aquariums, make sure that it’s not lower than it needs to be. In order to breed, discus require very soft water with a GH
between 1 and 3. Once your Discus are no longer fry and are in a separate rearing tank, you should raise the GH to 8-12 over a period of at least one week. Your young discus will develop much better in an environment potent with minerals. If you have no interest in breeding, then a GH of 8-12 provides a perfect balance between PH stability and mineral richness.
Carbonate Hardness (KH) is similar to general hardness. However, instead of measuring calcium and magnesium ions, it measures carbonate and bicarbonate ions. The higher the KH, the more stable the PH. Although KH is indeed beneficial, excess KH will stress your discus.
For that reason, KH must be maintained at a stable and suitable level at all times. The KH needs to be at a level where it won’t affect the breeding patterns of your discus. We recommended a KH of 1 - 2 for breeding tanks. Display tanks, however, are best suited to a KH of between 5 - 8, as this makes the PH far more manageable. The same principle of GH in rearing tanks applies to KH. The KH needs to be gradually raised so that the juveniles can benefit from the minerals that a higher KH provides. Gradually raising the KH will also help to stabilize the PH, as juveniles are extremely delicate to any changes in their water conditions. A KH of 5 - 8 in a rearing tank is ideal for growth and PH management.

https://www.discus.com/learning-center/water/general-water-hardness-gh.html

 

[Linus_Cello]

The highly bred discus (eg pigeon blood) are much easier than wild discus. But isn’t 35 gallons a little small?

 

[Gordo33]

The highly bred discus (eg pigeon blood) are much easier than wild discus. But isn’t 35 gallons a little small?

This is quarantine tank. They will go into a 125 gal display with 20 gal sump filter

 

[Gordo33]

My concern in regards GH and KH is that if KH is low 20 ppm or less, pH becomes very unstable and crashes are common place. No fish, including Discus, benefit from these events.....very stressful.

Agree.. I have an electronic pH meter and the pH has been stable for 8+ years. Part of this is probably due to aging the water before replacing and 50% WC 3-4 times a week. Before the WC regime gets attacked see info on simplydiscus.com for why discus are NOT like other tropicals and require the large and often WC.
Thank you for the info on kH and GH.