Do fish Feel pain ?

[Troutredds]

Who are these people? Where are the results of their research? I just finished a quick research scan and could not find ONE paper or article written within the scientific community that states absolutely that fish cannot feel pain. The notion of the requirement of a neocortex before pain can be experienced carries no weight because it is comparing apples to oranges...humans to fish.....mammals to non-mammals. Entirely different physiology. For example, humans have 5 senses, fish have more than 5. Carp, and likely other fish, can see in the near infrared of the light spectrum, humans can't. Etc. Etc.

The debate, I believe, is one of semantics: What is the definition of pain, as experienced by fish? It's not IF they experience pain but HOW. Is their reaction to pain-inducing stimuli cognative or reflexive?

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Is a human's response cognative or reflexive? It is both. The papers that I have read espouse the view that it is also the same in teleost fish.

 

[Mike in Vermont]

Is a human's response cognative or reflexive? It is both. The papers that I have read espouse the view that it is also the same in teleost fish.

When I was losing fish earlier this year, I saw signs of both.

 

[Dave 54]

The debate, I believe, is one of semantics: What is the definition of pain, as experienced by fish? It's not IF they experience pain but HOW. Is their reaction to pain-inducing stimuli cognative or reflexive?

Very true Troutredds this is why she is saying we must re-think what we are doing with our fish she argues that the care we accoord mammals and birds should be extended to fish .
I remember as a deep sea fisherman thousannds of fish that had gone through dramtic decompression that their swimbladders couldnt cope with their eyes bugging out and slowly sufercating on the deck of the trawler I was on.
I believe it was then I started to think what we were doing was wrong , but the public who buy their fish suppers have no idea what goes on on those decks everything is either pre packed or neatly presnted on the fish mongers slab .
Interestingly te angling fraternity though the accused her of spreading myhs and lies now plum for barbless hooks and have a return to pond policy .
However she argues that the debate cannot be resolved by science alone, ethics and philosophy has a role to play too.


Dave

 

[Dave 54]

Who are these people? Where are the results of their research? I just finished a quick research scan and could not find ONE paper or article written within the scientific community that states absolutely that fish cannot feel pain. The notion of the requirement of a neocortex before pain can be experienced carries no weight because it is comparing apples to oranges...humans to fish.....mammals to non-mammals. Entirely different physiology. For example, humans have 5 senses, fish have more than 5. Carp, and likely other fish, can see in the near infrared of the light spectrum, humans can't. Etc. Etc.

This link might lead you to the research papers your looking for Meyer :-

http://bio.psu.edu/directory/fields-of-research


Dave

 

[Mmathis]

I'm certain they feel pain. Now HOW or exactly WHAT they feel....... Whether it's pain per se, or just a sensation of discomfort...... But I know that when I've had a fish out and applied a hydrogen peroxide-dipped cotton swab to a suspected wound, I got a very difinite reaction out of the fish, and it struggled to get away despite being sedated with clove oil!!! Just about broke my heart

 

[Dave 54]

Nines out of ten I will use malchite and Propolis on any wounds they may get Maggie , whe it comes to ulcers however we are lucky in the fact that we can purchase Koi Clear Gel to help heal it up being impregnated with Ozone it makes for a faster more pain free treatment over Hydrogen Peroxide .
I've seen ulcers treated by it that quite franky are horrific in th damage done by the cauterizing effect of it .
Its now becoming clear that we can also use the gel on wounds acording to a recent converation with the lady that first put me onto it but I've yet to really test what she says

Dave

 

[MitchM]

At what point does stress become classified as pain?

ie., trying to wriggle free from being caught on a hook, vs trying to wriggle free from being caught in a net.

We shouldn't try to project what we could be feeling upon what we think another creature "should" be feeling. That happens all the time with our pets.

 

[Troutredds]

At what point does stress become classified as pain?

ie., trying to wriggle free from being caught on a hook, vs trying to wriggle free from being caught in a net.

We shouldn't try to project what we could be feeling upon what we think another creature "should" be feeling. That happens all the time with our pets.

So true, @MitchM! It's termed anthropomorphism: projecting human appearance, behavior or other traits onto a non-human subject. We exhibit this behavior often, I believe, without realizing it.

 

[dieselplower]

Dave it seems you have started at least 2 other "fish feel pain" threads in 2014. Scroll down to the bottom to the "similar threads" section

 

[MitchM]

dieselplower, if I didn't know any better, I'd say you have it out for Dave 54.

There are recent threads, but this thread seems to as a result of a new book Dave has. No problem with that.

 

[dieselplower]

dieselplower, if I didn't know any better, I'd say you have it out for Dave 54.

There are recent threads, but this thread seems to as a result of a new book Dave has. No problem with that.

Well I'd say you obviously don't know better... And by the way I've never sent Dave a PM calling him an idiot like he did to me!

 

[MitchM]

Don't get me wrong, dp. You're very knowledgeable in your own right, as are many others here.
PM's are PM's, meant to be private, not re-posted for the public.

 

[dieselplower]

Don't get me wrong, dp. You're very knowledgeable in your own right, as are many others here.
PM's are PM's, meant to be private, not re-posted for the public.

Nope a PM was meant to try to appear innocent on the forum but be a jerk in private. When I posted a pic if it he cried to a moderator. Don't send a PM you wouldn't post in public.

 

[MitchM]

That doesn't make sense. PM means "private message", not "public message".
Hash out your differences with someone in private, otherwise others may misunderstand what's going on.